Eddie Izzard not chosen to be Labour candidate for Sheffield Central.

I mean the concerns about puberty blockers obviously

I spent the last couple of weekends delivering leaflets for the bloody labour party, I sit in meetings with sexist dinosaurs, there is no such thing as a party that represents your entire world view, it does however make me uneasy when people lie and ask others to lie, but the alternative is worse.
However the hysterical/ extreme label, it's just that all the issues raised by GC feminists - puberty blockers, assaults in prisons, problems with social affirmation, they were all called extreme, etc but they are now mainstream policy.

Extending what Doodledog said -

Far more worrying to me is that I am certain many, many people are completely sure what a woman is, but are going along with the ideology that being a woman is optional.

Why would they do that?

https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202212/medium-819973-fikjxzfx0aak4ds2.jpg https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202212/medium-983858-fh1x-gux0aan6ar.jpg https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202212/medium-265181-0-fjuortjwaaebddb.jpg

By the way, there are numerous videos of women's meetings being disrupted by yelling, aggressive people - who often have to be held back by police and/or security staff.
These may be meetings inside buildings, or outside.
I have never seen videos of anyone trying to disrupt any trans events, and I'm sure there would be videos of it, if it ever happened.
Recently, however, it was claimed that a few women standing peacefully with placards outside Scottish Labour HQ were making others feel unsafe.

Mollygo
People who want this and see no problems with it are seriously deluded.

And those people will decline to answer any questions which would put their stance in jeopardy?

This, really.

How patronising is it to minimise my concerns and suggest that I am part of a 'tranche' who will sell out the country to the Tories 'just because Keir doesn't know what a woman is'? It's not 'just because' anything - I'm not worrying my pretty little head over trivialities. And I don't think for one minute that Keir Starmer doesn't know what a woman is. Far more worrying to me is that I am certain he does, but is going along with the ideology that being a woman is optional.

I don't know of a political party that has policies I agree with and also has a fact-based view of gender politics. As someone who has never not voted I find this worrying. I will vote Labour, but do so with a heavy heart, just as I would have done if I'd had the choice between a party who would, for example, both support Brexit and fight poverty and another who would support Brexit and ignore poverty. Not a great example, but the best I can do when multi-tasking. I don't support the LP's stand on 'gender' issues, and it worries me that they have sold out women in this way, but so far there is nobody else I can vote for.

IMO (and yes, it is seen from an English perspective) the problem is worse in Scotland, as NS is so vocally in favour of the trans agenda. That is very troubling for those who want independence, and I have every sympathy with my friends who are in that position.

In both cases (and possibly this applies in Wales, too) there is a real chance that someone will come along who can bridge that gap, and yes, that may not be for the best. That is worrying too, but it is for the parties themselves to sort that out - I am so sick of being told that people who object to others doing something should find a way to make it possible for them or STFU. It's tiresome.

Also, as I've said before, the faux 'sitting on the fence' thing is irritating. If you were unsure at the start of your posts on what have become known as 'trans threads', you have read and argued enough now to know your mind, and unless I've missed it have never posted anything other than to put down or patronise GC or fact-believing posters one way or another. Why would anyone who genuinely doesn't know what they think or doesn't care either way be so one-sided?

Sorry if I came over as patronising volver.

I have no idea how anyone who does see problems with the trans agenda can think it's still worth voting to support it.
It removes the whole category of 'woman' and 'female' - meaning that it becomes impossible to even talk about sex-based discrimination or sex-based problems of any kind because the existence of sex as a recognisable fact is no longer accepted.

People who want this and see no problems with it are seriously deluded. And those people will decline to answer any questions which would put their stance in jeopardy.
Where do comments in NS’s stance on GR appear as shouting and name calling?

FarNorth

^just because they think "Keir doesn't know what a woman is"^

So trivial, isn't it, that absolutely any male will be able to get legal recognition, from the Scottish Government, that he is actually a woman.
And that the Labour party would want the same thing for the whole UK.

People who want this and see no problems with it are seriously deluded.

Amen to that FarNorth 👍🏻😃
It will have to be absolutely crystal to me that KS won’t go down the Scottish government route on this issue before I will vote Labour.

I could do without being patronised by you.

"People" do see problems with it.

"People" also see the stance taken by opponents that will brook no opposition, that won't listen to anybody, and will walk over folk in their efforts to get what they consider to be "the right thing" done.'

By all means, be as vocal as you like. Protest, whatever. That's what we do in this country. But know that for some of us its not issue number one. And that telling people they are not feminist, or don't really understand, just makes you all sound more extreme and excludes some people you might win over if you thought about it for a minute.

Maybe you don't want to win us over. Maybe you think its so obvious its not worth talking about. So all that's left is shouting and name calling. And please don't tell me the other side do that. Does that make it OK for you to do it?

I don't expect that this will be the last word, because many of you can argue this much better than me. But this is the view of an "interested amateur".

But if it is a choice between that and another Tory government....

just because they think "Keir doesn't know what a woman is"

So trivial, isn't it, that absolutely any male will be able to get legal recognition, from the Scottish Government, that he is actually a woman.
And that the Labour party would want the same thing for the whole UK.

People who want this and see no problems with it are seriously deluded.

People will vote for KJK because of this one issue and she will stand against the Labour party and take votes away from them.

If the Labour party stops pretending it doesn't know what a woman is, that won't happen.

I'm sure KJK would be delighted to get no votes if the reason was that the Labour party had seen sense on this.

Yes Doodledog, it is becoming scary.

That there is a tranche of society that would risk having more of what we've had to put up with for the last 12 years or so in the UK, just because they think "Keir doesn't know what a woman is"

Very scary indeed.

I know we have very different views on this and that neither of us, probably, will change.

captured

A rather histrionic description, no?

But then, I've not peaked.

Ah, ok.

Well, regardless of my view, if you are aware of a party that believes that sex is immutable I would be pleased to hear which it is, as I am unaware that such a party exists. I have Scottish connections, and know a number of women who feel disenfranchised by the whole thing. It's becoming scary.

In this case “captured” is the word used by the gender critical to describe any organisation that does think TWAW, TMAM, etc. For the individual, when you become aware of some/all of the issues, you are said to have “peaked”. I have no idea when or who first decided to these these words but I certainly don’t think I’m paranoid in any way for holding the views that I do.

Sorry, question, not quotation. Typo.

Whose quotation?

My understanding comes from the media in England, so it's most unlikely that I know more about Scottish politics than you, but I only hear Joanna Cherry make any sense on the subject. The SNP has sold women out altogether, you never hear from Scottish Tories 'down here' and Labour are hopeless on the subject whichever country they represent.

volver What’s objective about thinking that people can change sex?

Well your quotation pre-supposes a certain view of trans affairs, in which your understanding is much greater than mine. So I decline to answer.

Just that when we talk about everybody being "captured", and newspapers selling out, I start to see a little "paranoia". Sorry to use that word, because I know it has connotations but I'm using it in the way people use it in conversation, not in the medical sense.

My understanding of Scottish politics is not as comprehensive as yours, volver. Which party would you say has not bought into the TWAW narrative?

All the major political parties in Scotland have been “captured” and the Guardian has sold out to the trans lobby.

One begins to suspect a view of the world which is not entirely objective.

I agree. I have said for a while that trans supporters are framing this as left/right deliberately. One of my first posts on here was asking a question about the insistence that gender non-conforming young people must be trans was regressive was met with a patronising reply that I must be Right wing. At the time I assumed that the poster just had a tentative grip on what Left or Right actually means, but then I realised that it was being said spitefully, as a way of writing off views that differed from her own as small-minded or authoritarian.

The fact that the Guardian has sold out to the trans lobby does not make it a Right wing cause - it has more to do with the funding of the paper coming from trans-supporting people and organisations. The truth is not that fact-based feminists are Right wing, but that the Left has become captured by Stonewall and its misogynist ideology.

Suzanne Moore discusses how this has happened in this article and there is more on the overseeing of the Guardian here

Ilovecheese I totally agree, voting for KJK would almost certainly take votes away from Labour but they are doing nothing to stop that happening. And I know the last thing we need as a country is many more years of a Conservative Govt.

When I last posted, I was going to say more but it was late/early and I was going off to my bed as I was tired.
Reasons for me to like KJK - she has probably done more than anyone in the UK to make people aware of issues like TIMs using women’s toilets, of them being in women’s prisons, etc.,etc. The billboard campaign was simple and brilliant, easily understood by all. When she is interviewed, what she says is again, easily understood by all. I’m a fairly average UK woman, have never thought of myself as a feminist, don’t have a degree, but I am literate and widely read and I do struggle to understand some of the writings of left leaning feminists. I never fail to understand KJK.
She is fearless with regards to facing up to the black garbed, hooded, face-hidden trans activists who violently disrupt every event she organises. She has had countless threats, both overt and covert, made against her and her children.
She stands up for women and that is her bottom line.

Reasons for me to dislike KJK - she does appear to have links/be associated with some, imo, very dodgy characters. She does appear to be far more right wing in her thinking than I could or would ever want to be.

If there was a general election next week, and there was a “standing for women” candidate, then yes I would vote for her. All the major political parties in Scotland have been “captured”, the Scottish Govt is determined to pass the GRR bill and I feel for the first time in my life truly politically homeless. I could not bring myself to vote for someone who ignores biological facts, believes that TWAW and TMAM, or even just follows the party line although they are not true believers in this ideological nonsense.