Eddie Izzard not chosen to be Labour candidate for Sheffield Central.

Ah, ok.

Well, regardless of my view, if you are aware of a party that believes that sex is immutable I would be pleased to hear which it is, as I am unaware that such a party exists. I have Scottish connections, and know a number of women who feel disenfranchised by the whole thing. It's becoming scary.

captured

A rather histrionic description, no?

But then, I've not peaked.

Yes Doodledog, it is becoming scary.

That there is a tranche of society that would risk having more of what we've had to put up with for the last 12 years or so in the UK, just because they think "Keir doesn't know what a woman is"

Very scary indeed.

I know we have very different views on this and that neither of us, probably, will change.

People will vote for KJK because of this one issue and she will stand against the Labour party and take votes away from them.

If the Labour party stops pretending it doesn't know what a woman is, that won't happen.

I'm sure KJK would be delighted to get no votes if the reason was that the Labour party had seen sense on this.

just because they think "Keir doesn't know what a woman is"

So trivial, isn't it, that absolutely any male will be able to get legal recognition, from the Scottish Government, that he is actually a woman.
And that the Labour party would want the same thing for the whole UK.

People who want this and see no problems with it are seriously deluded.

But if it is a choice between that and another Tory government....

I could do without being patronised by you.

"People" do see problems with it.

"People" also see the stance taken by opponents that will brook no opposition, that won't listen to anybody, and will walk over folk in their efforts to get what they consider to be "the right thing" done.'

By all means, be as vocal as you like. Protest, whatever. That's what we do in this country. But know that for some of us its not issue number one. And that telling people they are not feminist, or don't really understand, just makes you all sound more extreme and excludes some people you might win over if you thought about it for a minute.

Maybe you don't want to win us over. Maybe you think its so obvious its not worth talking about. So all that's left is shouting and name calling. And please don't tell me the other side do that. Does that make it OK for you to do it?

I don't expect that this will be the last word, because many of you can argue this much better than me. But this is the view of an "interested amateur".

FarNorth

^just because they think "Keir doesn't know what a woman is"^

So trivial, isn't it, that absolutely any male will be able to get legal recognition, from the Scottish Government, that he is actually a woman.
And that the Labour party would want the same thing for the whole UK.

People who want this and see no problems with it are seriously deluded.

Amen to that FarNorth 👍🏻😃
It will have to be absolutely crystal to me that KS won’t go down the Scottish government route on this issue before I will vote Labour.

People who want this and see no problems with it are seriously deluded. And those people will decline to answer any questions which would put their stance in jeopardy.
Where do comments in NS’s stance on GR appear as shouting and name calling?

Sorry if I came over as patronising volver.

I have no idea how anyone who does see problems with the trans agenda can think it's still worth voting to support it.
It removes the whole category of 'woman' and 'female' - meaning that it becomes impossible to even talk about sex-based discrimination or sex-based problems of any kind because the existence of sex as a recognisable fact is no longer accepted.

Mollygo
People who want this and see no problems with it are seriously deluded.

And those people will decline to answer any questions which would put their stance in jeopardy?

This, really.

How patronising is it to minimise my concerns and suggest that I am part of a 'tranche' who will sell out the country to the Tories 'just because Keir doesn't know what a woman is'? It's not 'just because' anything - I'm not worrying my pretty little head over trivialities. And I don't think for one minute that Keir Starmer doesn't know what a woman is. Far more worrying to me is that I am certain he does, but is going along with the ideology that being a woman is optional.

I don't know of a political party that has policies I agree with and also has a fact-based view of gender politics. As someone who has never not voted I find this worrying. I will vote Labour, but do so with a heavy heart, just as I would have done if I'd had the choice between a party who would, for example, both support Brexit and fight poverty and another who would support Brexit and ignore poverty. Not a great example, but the best I can do when multi-tasking. I don't support the LP's stand on 'gender' issues, and it worries me that they have sold out women in this way, but so far there is nobody else I can vote for.

IMO (and yes, it is seen from an English perspective) the problem is worse in Scotland, as NS is so vocally in favour of the trans agenda. That is very troubling for those who want independence, and I have every sympathy with my friends who are in that position.

In both cases (and possibly this applies in Wales, too) there is a real chance that someone will come along who can bridge that gap, and yes, that may not be for the best. That is worrying too, but it is for the parties themselves to sort that out - I am so sick of being told that people who object to others doing something should find a way to make it possible for them or STFU. It's tiresome.

Also, as I've said before, the faux 'sitting on the fence' thing is irritating. If you were unsure at the start of your posts on what have become known as 'trans threads', you have read and argued enough now to know your mind, and unless I've missed it have never posted anything other than to put down or patronise GC or fact-believing posters one way or another. Why would anyone who genuinely doesn't know what they think or doesn't care either way be so one-sided?

https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202212/medium-819973-fikjxzfx0aak4ds2.jpg https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202212/medium-983858-fh1x-gux0aan6ar.jpg https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202212/medium-265181-0-fjuortjwaaebddb.jpg

By the way, there are numerous videos of women's meetings being disrupted by yelling, aggressive people - who often have to be held back by police and/or security staff.
These may be meetings inside buildings, or outside.
I have never seen videos of anyone trying to disrupt any trans events, and I'm sure there would be videos of it, if it ever happened.
Recently, however, it was claimed that a few women standing peacefully with placards outside Scottish Labour HQ were making others feel unsafe.

Extending what Doodledog said -

Far more worrying to me is that I am certain many, many people are completely sure what a woman is, but are going along with the ideology that being a woman is optional.

Why would they do that?

I spent the last couple of weekends delivering leaflets for the bloody labour party, I sit in meetings with sexist dinosaurs, there is no such thing as a party that represents your entire world view, it does however make me uneasy when people lie and ask others to lie, but the alternative is worse.
However the hysterical/ extreme label, it's just that all the issues raised by GC feminists - puberty blockers, assaults in prisons, problems with social affirmation, they were all called extreme, etc but they are now mainstream policy.

I mean the concerns about puberty blockers obviously

It's gaslighting on a massive scale.

I was thinking of how to answer this while I was eating my pizza, but decided that whatever I say will be minimised.

So far, on trans threads, I've been told I'm not a feminist, had somebody wonder if I have been misrepresenting myself as a woman when I'm really a man, obliquely described as deluded for believing something when I don't believe in it at all, and now that I'm being gaslighted and apparently I don't know it.

I also find myself wondering why nobody ever mentions that Self ID is already the law in about 15 countries. Maybe you have and I've missed it.

To borrow and paraphrase something that's been said a lot tonight , "Why would you do that?"

I'm sure you all have a response. You always do.

What I said volver was
So trivial, isn't it, that absolutely any male will be able to get legal recognition, from the Scottish Government, that he is actually a woman.
And that the Labour party would want the same thing for the whole UK.
People who want this and see no problems with it are seriously deluded.

If you don't want that, then I wasn't talking about you - although your comment "just because they think "Keir doesn't know what a woman is"" does suggest you think our concerns are trivial.

In other countries, there are problems which are concealed by pretending that men are women and documenting them as such.
Also some countries which have 'self-id' have included more restrictions than the complete free-for-all that is proposed for Scotland.

Well you always have a response Volver, is that a bad thing now.
I dont know that people are saying you are being gaslit rather that may be how we feel, I know when people tell me that someone who is a Male rapist is a woman it feels deeply uncomfortable, as if people are trying to undermine reality almost. I am not trying to be dramatic but I dont know how to describe it. I know it's not true but people keep saying it over and over again, its disconcerting.

as if people are trying to undermine reality almost.

It's not 'almost' - they absolutely are undermining reality because 'male rapist = woman' is a lie.

FarNorth

^as if people are trying to undermine reality almost.^

It's not 'almost' - they absolutely are undermining reality because 'male rapist = woman' is a lie.

In whose version of reality is ‘male rapist=woman’ anything but a lie?

The problem with undermining realities is that I understand you feel your reality is being undermined and that is disturbing.

However this is a contentious area where different realities are being talked about. I see a proposed reality of consistency transphobia on these threads which disturbs my underlying view of the world (justice for minorities, against abusive transbullying, and the benign and decent trans people that are out there.

I think I've posted about self ID in other countries volver but it's usually ignored. I've also expressed my concern that the UK is classed with countries like Poland, Russia and Turkey for the level of transphobia and transphobic attacks www.itv.com/news/2022-01-26/uk-named-alongside-russia-in-lgbt-hate-report-due-to-transphobia
Apparently none of that matters. People don't seem too understand that blaming transpeople for the actions of a few individuals creates a culture which breeds transphobia
The politics of the right wing have always necessitated removing the very different first of all and then slowly insisting that all conform. Quite why women don't recognise the tactics I don't know. Perhaps they believe our hard won rights are set in stone instead of delicately balanced. Goodness knows the warning signs are there. Look at the US and abortion law. "Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got till its gone"

Wyllow I believe people cant change sex, I believe single sex spaces are protected under the equality act, this is not transphobia, it's a protected belief.

If you dont believe men can become women then we will take your right to abortion away. It's not an original threat I am afraid.