Unconscious bias / racism/ assumptions made maybe?

Maybe just old fashioned common sense.

For you yes! For me too probably in my experience and perspective and as an older white woman!!

Can you not see that from the perspective of 2 black teenagers with their experience and knowledge of the statistical risks for black boys/men then just maybe it is harder for them?

And I really am not sure how much common sense and calm I would have been able to muster whilst watching my 13 year old brother be arrested, when I was 15 (if I had had one!) I'm pretty sure my once 15 year old son would have panicked, observing his once 13 year old sister be arrested, if it had ever happened, which it didn't!

The point is, looking at a situation only from one perspective does not give an accurate picture of why this occurred, nor does it provide a full picture in any review!!

tickingbird

^Maybe to suit your own unconscious agenda?^

Maybe just old fashioned common sense.

sigh

JaneJudge

I'd have been worried if it was my 15yo let alone a 13yo. I don't really understand why presumably a group full of Mums and Grans can be so unsympathetic - bias or no bias, conscious or unconscious

I am rather bemused as well *JaneJudge".

That is not because I am assuming anything per se. But because some seem to be completely unwilling to consider the perspective of these boys; the FACT that they were 15 and 13! I mean does anyone else sort of know what teenagers might be like under pressure? Pressure like watching your younger brother being arrested? Are rail staff aware then? Maybe that should be considered in how to manage such situations?

Is it so difficult to consider that aspect for discussion in this scenario and in reviewing what happened?

Then the perspective of the mother also seems to have been lost ..I mean, not knowing where her son was for 2 hours....then finding he was in a cell at the police station - the first one she contacted no less, who told her they had no idea where he was!! Conscious, Unconscious or anything else in expressing ones viewpoint, how can that be lost .... no wonder she is upset and angry!

my GS is 6'2 and 16 - a rugby player. But anyone looking at him would know he is still a child. He has forgotten his Oyster card once, and aologised in his best RP accent, with his Irish looks and told 'don't worry, but make sure you have it with you always'. End of story.

I worry about him all the time- but this would have never ever happen to him, for obvious reasons.

Maybe to suit your own unconscious agenda?

Maybe just old fashioned common sense.

I'd have been worried if it was my 15yo let alone a 13yo. I don't really understand why presumably a group full of Mums and Grans can be so unsympathetic - bias or no bias, conscious or unconscious

Glorianny

So adult white people violate traffic regulations, apologise and get away with it. One teenage black boy forgets his oyster card and is arrested for it. Could you have a more vivid example of how racism works in the police?

Yep, this is it. So many people have NO idea are in total denial, for whatever reasons. Some we can only guess!

Unless you are black, or have close friends or relatives who are and experience this kind of thing, day in, day out- and mostly when they have NOT comitted any offence at all- just have no idea. Some are prepared to open eyes- some definitely are not.We can only guess why.

VioletSky

Eyes have been opened a little reading this

I truly hope so. I think many of the posters eyes were already open. The discussion is interesting and hopefully informative on lots of levels.

These are all the links that I can get to cut and paste. Some others just won't I don't know why!

I am still unclear what I have said that is not detailed in the original links Maizie but hope that these below add information for you

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/dec/08/woman-accuses-police-excessive-force-black-sons-at-south-london-station

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/mums-anger-sons-restrained-cuffed-28692986

www.mylondon.news/news/south-london-news/mums-anger-sons-handcuffed-one-25717641

www.btp.police.uk/news/btp/news/england/btp-make-voluntary-referral-to-iopc-after-shortlands-arrests/

twitter.com/Toddpodd/status/1599729353595551744

Eyes have been opened a little reading this

Sorry Glorianny missed your reply to 25Avalon when I posted mine above

25Avalon

Can I ask what may seem a stupid question? How did mum know what was happening with her two boys or which police station? She would have thought they were safely in school. Did one of her boys ring or did BTP contact her or the Police. Surely they should have done for a minor and why according to her was she given false information? There’s a lot more going on here.

Her 13 year old son rang her just before 9am in floods of tears! A witness to the incident in the station went and ask him if he was ok, calmed him down and suggested he rang his Mum. The witness stated this on Twitter but I can't get the link to cut and paste. The mother says in her Channel 4 interview that she had a call from her younger son in tears!!

I am unclear why you not being aware of these facts makes you think "there's a lot more going on here"??

Knowing the risk Black boys face from the authorities...

25Avalon

Can I ask what may seem a stupid question? How did mum know what was happening with her two boys or which police station? She would have thought they were safely in school. Did one of her boys ring or did BTP contact her or the Police. Surely they should have done for a minor and why according to her was she given false information? There’s a lot more going on here.

Her 13year old, left alone in London rang her in distress. Se then contacted the police station where he said his brother was, the police said he wasn't there, she then rang all the nearest police stations. She had two hours when she had no idea where her son was, then the first police station contacted her and said he was there. I can't imagine how she felt. Two hours with a son somewhere in London, last seen with the police but now uncontactable, she must have been so worried. Watch the video in the link.

Can I ask what may seem a stupid question? How did mum know what was happening with her two boys or which police station? She would have thought they were safely in school. Did one of her boys ring or did BTP contact her or the Police. Surely they should have done for a minor and why according to her was she given false information? There’s a lot more going on here.

grannydarkhair

HousePlantQueen Not just this one, but the numerous threads about Harry/Meghan, and migrants have shocked me. And, sadly, in a lot of posts, I don’t think it is “unconscious” bias or racism. I think some people are well aware of why they’re saying what they’re saying.

I agree. They say things from the anonymity of their identity from behind the keyboard.

Face to face they'd be mortified if friends and family knew of their overt racism.

There MAY be good reason why it escalated ...hopefully any review will explain that. I can't get the link to cut and paste but evidently the BTP have voluntarily referred themselves for an investigation and are "confident their officers acted with proportionality in this incident". Some more information may come! My question remains, will the nuances of this situation, and the possible considerations of how to avoid such escalation with 2 teenage boys in school uniform, also be considered in any investigation?

And then ofcourse there is the apparent Met police debacle! Poor mum eh! 2 hours, not knowing no help from police and then oh look he's in police custody! 😳

HousePlantQueen Not just this one, but the numerous threads about Harry/Meghan, and migrants have shocked me. And, sadly, in a lot of posts, I don’t think it is “unconscious” bias or racism. I think some people are well aware of why they’re saying what they’re saying.

Actually, at the risk of getting this thread shut down, I would say that it illustrates just how racism and bias work in the GN world, unconsciously or otherwise. I am appalled at those excusing the actions of the police, and blaming the boys for what happened; ie 'they shouldn't have run away' when it didn't happen. Before any accusations come my way, many of my family are/have been Police officers

So have mine! I hope it isn't shut down as it is at least opening up a discussion about the nuances of such incidents within the context/experiences/ perspectives of those involved!
Which is a refreshing change from it descending into what other threads linked to similar issues have done!

Glorianny

So adult white people violate traffic regulations, apologise and get away with it. One teenage black boy forgets his oyster card and is arrested for it. Could you have a more vivid example of how racism works in the police?

Actually, at the risk of getting this thread shut down, I would say that it illustrates just how racism and bias work in the GN world, unconsciously or otherwise. I am appalled at those excusing the actions of the police, and blaming the boys for what happened; ie 'they shouldn't have run away' when it didn't happen. Before any accusations come my way, many of my family are/have been Police officers.

tickingbird

^But I bet you were not arrested. Despite violating regulations as you say, just like the 13 year old boy did, no major crime, just 'violation'.^

No it wasn’t an arrestable offense but if I had driven off, refused to give my name etc I would have been.

Argue all you like but police are there to stop crime.

Don't patronise me with your 'Argue all you like but police are there to stop crime; comments. Why are you deliberately misunderstanding what some are saying? Maybe to suit your own unconscious agenda?

Spot on DoodleDog. Expressed better than I have managed! 😏

Allsorts

You all want to believe what you want to. Until the actual facts emerge I won’t judge. If these youngsters, we’re just beaten up, that’s appalling and then the officers will be sacked, if the youngsters were throwing punches and aggressive and have a history, we shall find that out too. Too many explosive inaccurate reporting goes on and mud sticks, I wait until the investigation into this is done.

Whose 'actual facts' will you believe, Allsorts?

You have already discounted the mother's telling of the facts. As you weren't there, you don't have your own interpretation of 'the facts', and 'facts' can vary hugely depending on who is interpreting them.

One way to interpret them would be to look at the number of people of colour who have been treated similarly to these boys, and consider whether the colour of their skin might have prompted the police to behave as they did. Another is to assume that the boys must have been doing something wrong, as otherwise the incident wouldn't have happened. Both are judging, but the former is easier to substantiate than the latter, which is based on opinion only.

Also, even if they do have 'a history' of resisting arrest, (which there is no reason to assume), that is no excuse - why would you take that into account at this stage beef 'judging'? It might be considered at sentencing if they are persistent offenders, but the police would have no idea about that at the time of the arrest.

tickingbird

^But I bet you were not arrested. Despite violating regulations as you say, just like the 13 year old boy did, no major crime, just 'violation'.^

No it wasn’t an arrestable offense but if I had driven off, refused to give my name etc I would have been.

Argue all you like but police are there to stop crime.

If you were Black, you're have been taken to the station. Think yourself lucky.

Glorianny

The correct procedure for someone without a valid ticket is to issue a penalty fare notice, I wonder why the ticket inspectors failed to follow this?

That's a good question Glorianny and links directly back to my original question too. The point being that there may be nuanced reasons why that didn't happen ...and being too tall whilst wearing school uniform really isn't one if them.

Considering the nuances in such a situation is important and leads to better reviewing of the whole picture and better change, if needed.