Unconscious bias / racism/ assumptions made maybe?

I think the witness statements cement the opinion really. Several police called to confront unarmed under 16 year olds.

Poor kids.

Two witnesses are clear that neither child was violent.

They both admit to shouting which is unsurprising considering how scared they were. The 15 year old is 6 foot 4 inches tall which will be a disadvantage for him in terms of assumptions made, I suspect.

Then there is the 13 year old who is arrested, de arrested and fined, seeing his older brother removed and not knowing where his brother has been taken! He is sent out of the station and told to "go and get his ticket"! A witness asks him if he is ok and he bursts into tears! Unsurprisingly!!

Meanwhile his brother is taken to a police station and apparently no attempt is made to contact his parent, in fact when she enquires she is given incorrect information! He is eventually released without charge. His school has confirmed that the small rock in his pocket was for a Geography project on rock formation!!

The point is why on earth would this whole incident escalate to the extent that it did without unconscious assumptions being made? What on earth possessed such a reaction to two schoolboys, albeit tall ones, in school uniform so clearly young?

Just to add to this, though I think not mentioned in the links I posted, the Mother was evidently asked by a "helpful" BTP Officer whether she knew about the Princes Trust, that support "Vulnerable Teenagers"!!!! Dear dear me!!

another example of adultification of black children

It is welbeck and also demonstrates assumptions made about them, rather than considering the whole picture.

BTP say that they are "reviewing" but are "confident that correct procedures have been followed"! However, is anyone going to actually look at why it escalated in the way it did, and why it was felt necessary for procedures to be followed to the extent that they were?. Unless the unconscious assumptions suggested by what happened are addressed openly in reviewing, then nothing will change!

And what an awful position for their mother to be put in and to deal with with two traumatised teenagers!!

I’m not sure this comes under the heading of “unconscious bias” - cynically I think this degree of bias is fully “conscious” and sadly all too common.

If the review is carried out only by those who are confident that correct procedures were followed, it's unlikely to yield anything useful.

It can't possibly be correct procedure for the mother of a 15 year old not to be told where he is, when in police custody, and in fact to be told a lie.

MawtheMerrier

I’m not sure this comes under the heading of “unconscious bias” - cynically I think this degree of bias is fully “conscious” and sadly all too common.

I'm not sure about that. I do think that unconscious racism plays a part in reactions and responses ... which may well move into conscious assumptions. I hope thats makes sense, not sure I am explaining myself too well!

Absolutely FarNorth! Plus unless the potential deeper causes of how those procedures were implemented are considered then nothing will change!

“The boys were trying to avoid being pinned to the floor because they both said that they thought they would die, and my oldest said: ‘I thought I would die, I thought they were going to kill me.’

This is what stands out for me. Because black men and boys do die at the hands of the authorities.

And for all the arguing on other threads about what does and doesn't constitute racism, this is the reality of being Black and British in 2022.

They were stopped for ticket evasion, which anyone would be. Carrying a rock in a pocket could be used as an offensive weapon.
The way you've talked about this is not accurate..
I have seen people apprehended for not having a ticket, none caused a fuss and ran off, what did they expect. It's nothing to do with being black, it's not buying a ticket, shouting and running off and carrying a rock.. At 6'4" that's very tall he probably appeared adult. Some more infirmation needed before judging. A lot if mothers stick up for their children, whatever.

No wonder there's problems.

Obviously I can’t prove this, but would the police have reacted in the same way to two white boys in public school uniform? I do wonder.

Allsorts

They were stopped for ticket evasion, which anyone would be. Carrying a rock in a pocket could be used as an offensive weapon.
The way you've talked about this is not accurate..
I have seen people apprehended for not having a ticket, none caused a fuss and ran off, what did they expect. It's nothing to do with being black, it's not buying a ticket, shouting and running off and carrying a rock.. At 6'4" that's very tall he probably appeared adult. Some more infirmation needed before judging. A lot if mothers stick up for their children, whatever.

No wonder there's problems.

the response by the station staff to a child not having an Oyster card, which was to call several police officers

several police officers
To deal with one person without an Oyster card.

You don't regard that as disproportionate?

Black boys and men die at the hands of the police. It is a regular occurence. I'd run too if I thought I was going to die.

Yes, it seems a massive overreaction to schoolboys without a ticket. You can’t get the police to investigate a burglary, but several of them for a fare-dodger? And presumably he had a pass or an Oyster card as he travelled regularly, so taking his name should have been enough.

Not having to put up with this sort of thing is an example of the white privilege we were talking about on the other thread.

I can see that there are those who felt they have themselves been treated unfairly, I am being objective, looking at all the facts, until you know everything you can't judge., Were the staff following the current procedure with fare evaders? Was there a geology lesson?. Were they loud and abusive? Have they always travelled that route and had tickets? Is this a one off? You can't just take a mother's word as a character reference.
If there are those who are victims of abuse, I don't want to invalidate your feelings.

I hear you, Allsorts, but valid points only if there was very good reason to stop to intervene in the first place. a lump in the pocket of a teenage boy is hardly cause with ono other factors for stopping them, they were not dong anything untoward.

But isn't the whole point racist wise that before all those questions you raise were addressed, it was the aggressive and unnecessary stopping the boys in the first place. Now that, is a "fact".

The lad might be 6ft 4 but he is only 15, he’s still a child. The brothers must have been terrified. As GagaJo says, black men and boys have died due to the actions of some police. Has George Floyd been forgotten already?

Allsorts They were stopped for ticket evasion, which anyone would be

Being stoped isn't the issue. Ghe mother rightly has expressed no problem regarding them being stopped!

Allsorts Carrying a rock in a pocket could be used as an offensive weapon

It could but the boy didn't get the tock out, tried to say it was for a geography project (probably shouted it actually as he was scared!) and noone thought that pretty plausible for a kid in school uniform

Allsorts I have seen people apprehended for not having a ticket, none caused a fuss and ran off, what did they expect

They didn't run off! It appears the 2 boys who ran away were other school boys frightened by what happening!
They didn't initially make a fuss. They tried yo explain tge younger boy had forgotten his ticket, he wasn't believed and was arrested. At which point the older brother tried to stop them (he's 15, he's scared about his brother remember) and it slipped went from there!!

Allsorts It's nothing to do with being black, it's not buying a ticket, shouting and running off and carrying a rock

Hmm! Can you not see that brieng black is the starting point for at least questioning why this escalated so drastically, at least considering if there is relevance? Which is what people are doing on here!

Also it is obvious why, with historical incidents, these 2 boys might be scared rather more quickly than 2 white teenagers. The older boy was terrified of being pushed to the ground because of what happened to George Floyd. In their world, it is obvious why he would be scared. And he's 15!

At 6'4" that's very tall he probably appeared adult.

He was in school uniform!!!! Did none have the common sense to assess that in this situation!! He's 15, 6'4" and in SCHOOL UNIFORM!!! With his younger brother who is in school uniform!

The fact is that the rapidly aggressive response to not having a ticket escalated very rapidly! And the open-minded question, within the context of other facts as above, is WHY???

I am being objective, looking at all the facts, until you know everything you can't judge.
Not really. You are interpreting the ‘facts’ in a particular way. As you say, until you know everything you can’t judge; but you are judging what is a ‘fact’ here, when you really don’t know.

For example you say that this has nothing to do with being black. Is that a ‘fact’ or your interpretation?

Carrying a rock ‘could be’ a weapon - another interpretation. It could also have been a pet rock, a paperweight, part of a collection or an exhibit for show and tell in a geology class.

Whether they always traveled that route is irrelevant- how would the police know the answer to that, and why does it matter? Deviation from a usual route is not a reason for being stopped, and so on.

What you are presenting are not facts - and in cases like this (ie judgement calls) ‘facts’ are slippery concepts.

PS

Allsorts A lot of mothers stick up for their children, whatever.

Indeed they do. And this mother voiced her concerns calmly, reasonably and her questions were entirely valid. Why should those valid questions be dismissed as "whatever" just because she is speaking about something that happened to her two teenage sons?

Are you supposed to turn a blind eye to fare evasion dependant on colour? Everyone able to travel by train alone, knows it's not free. They know that. If asked to stop and they don't do you just wave them off?
However, you look at things from a different perspective so I will leave it at that.

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tickingbird

Deleted post.

Are you serious in your last sentence? The statistics on stop and search whether the person is on foot or on a car, if they are black, tell the truth - black people are far more likely to be apprehended when nothing is amiss. Every black youth grows up knowing this. Of course there is distrust - and fear.

Are you supposed to turn a blind eye to fare evasion dependant on colour?Everyone able to travel by train alone, knows it's not free.They know that. If asked to stop and they don't do you just wave themoff?

No ofcourse not and noone is saying that! You appear to be ignoring yge FACT that they DID stop and DID NOT run off!!

However, you look at things from a different perspective so I will leave it at that

A pity, Allsorts. Being open minded to looking at the facts, considering those facts and then evaluating and deciding a viewpoint based on those facts is a good way to go!!

The statistics on stop and search whether the person is on foot or on a car, if they are black, tell the truth - black people are far more likely to be apprehended when nothing is amiss. Every black youth grows up knowing this. Of course there is distrust - and fear

Another FACT that shouldn't be ignored when considering this incident!