Scotland's Gender Recognition Reform Bill to be debated today 20 Dec & voted on 21 Dec

Excellent posts @ 17.09 and 17.43 Doodledog.

No to self ID as outlined by this Reform bill has nothing to do with transphobia or any kind of phobia or discrimination.

Women are urged to keep themselves safe. Not to walk home at night alone. Not to take a taxi alone. Not to leave their drinks unattended and then go back to them. Not because all men are a potential risk but because just one, unknown to them might be.

Women who don't want a fully intact self identifying male in their changing rooms, toilets, women's refuge centres and hospital wards aren't anti trans, and don't think or believe that all trans women who haven't undergone total reassignment are a potential threat, but some maybe.

Who in their right mind, could possibly think it acceptable that a man, with a previous conviction for a sex crime, should be able to identify as a woman and access women's safe spaces.

Who in their right mind, could possibly think it acceptable that the victim of rape should have to face her attacker in court, and refer to him as she because he obtained a GRC before the case went to trial.

There's nothing scaremongering about this and I agree volver that if we want to see this done properly we need less blaming ........ and a few more grown up attitudes which I do not see in this reform Bill.

Doodledog

Only in the minds of those who think that black men are equivalent to convicted sex offenders. They really aren't.

I think that the constant reference to previous forms of prejudice as though it is the same as concern for women being in intimate spaces with sex offenders is offensive to the groups who were previously discriminated against, but as you seem disinclined to be civil, I'll just say 'yeah, whatever'.

There are most certainly aspects of this which need careful consideration, The access to single sex spaces, being able to specify that you want a "natal" woman to take care of personal needs etc. Those are issues that need to be addressed.

But is that what the "no to Self ID" protesters want? It seems not. "No to self ID" isn't exactly nuanced, is it?

To an interested external viewer, like me; It appears that the GC want to deny rights to trans people just in case some of them are bad guys. I'm sorry, but it does remind me of the blanket assumptions about people of colour, or even women. No concerns for the individuals, just for the amorphous mass that makes up "trans people". Deal with the individual problems, as they come. Stop scarmongering about men getting into womens' spaces; if a person is a threat, whether they are male female or something else entirely, (Martian?) deal with that.

What is offensive is being told that if you take a slightly more open view of this whole thing, that you are not interested in women's safety, that you are not a feminist, and in my own personal case, that I was probably a man masquerading as a woman on here for nefarious ends. Those are not general criticisms, those are things that have been said to me on here. So yes, my capacity for civility is severely dented.

IMO, if we want to see this done properly, we need less blaming and scaremongering, and a few more grown up attitudes.

Aveline

Were you there volver?

No I wasn't.

Only in the minds of those who think that black men are equivalent to convicted sex offenders. They really aren't.

I think that the constant reference to previous forms of prejudice as though it is the same as concern for women being in intimate spaces with sex offenders is offensive to the groups who were previously discriminated against, but as you seem disinclined to be civil, I'll just say 'yeah, whatever'.

Were you there volver?

This is what google found first.

How this horrific violence came to take place traces back to a particularly destructive idea, one as old as the United States itself and rooted in the country’s white supremacy: that black men are a physical threat to white people. The narrative that black men are inherently violent and prone to rape white women, as Roof said during his rampage, has been prevalent for centuries. This idea has served as the primary justification for the need to oppress black people to protect the common — meaning white — good.

Bigots thought that black people were a threat to white people, that they were dangerous. That link with what is going on today is "self evident", whatever you say.

Aye, whatever.

The race thing is a false equivalence. For one thing, race makes no difference to whether someone is male or female. For another, people of colour wanting access to 'white' facilities was never going to put white people at risk.

Also, it is perfectly possible to not be anti trans but also want to protect women against being forced to share intimate spaces with sex offenders. That seems self-evident to me.

You are quite correct, you don't have to explain your reasons for posting anything on here. So I'll just tell you this.

You telling people who don't agree with you on this topic that they are not interested in the safety of women and children is more than offensive, its hideous. You have no idea what I'm "interested in".

There is a lot to discuss about this bill, but as long as those who actually think bits of it might be a good idea are demonised and maligned this way, there is no way that you (plural) can take the high ground.

Last night on TV, I heard an opponent of this bill say that they were "not anti trans, that they have trans friends." Now change the word "trans" to Black, or Asian, or foreign, and see how it sounds. This is why some of us think the "GC" (or whatever you are called) are just a little bit off the mark with this one.

Every reason to be offended by those not interested in the safety of women and children, they need the protection of the law, thinking otherwise is offensive. I don’t have to explain the reasons they are self evident.

Allsorts

Just whose are the people who want this bill overturned. No right minded person thinks it's normal.,Scotand has lost the plot.

Allsorts Scotland has not lost the plot. But it appears you're being quite unkind lately, no real reason is there, for such?

Allsorts

Sorry if I offended you Grannydarkhair, I know you and the majority of Scotland are on the side of justice. This horrible group have their own twisted agender, they are not bothered by the rights of women and their children. I hear them on here pushing for gender fluidity, you know it's not right but they have their own reasons and blow the rest.
In my opinion sex offenders have lost their rights to even vote they are the lowest form of life.
Fingers crossed all will be well.

You are being very offensive Allsorts.

What so you suppose those "reasons" are?

The scene outside Holyrood today. Scottish people not happy!!

Sorry if I offended you Grannydarkhair, I know you and the majority of Scotland are on the side of justice. This horrible group have their own twisted agender, they are not bothered by the rights of women and their children. I hear them on here pushing for gender fluidity, you know it's not right but they have their own reasons and blow the rest.
In my opinion sex offenders have lost their rights to even vote they are the lowest form of life.
Fingers crossed all will be well.

He was right, "there was no sensible reason anyone could oppose that amendment". Obviously, being sensible has nothing to do with it.

Comment from Roddy Dunlop KC.

Madness

And another one.

I'd have thought a convicted sex offender is incapable of making a reasoned decision about their gender.

I wish genders would just go away so that people can simply be different individuals.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-64043949

Allsorts No, Scotland hasn’t lost the plot.
There are a great number of us up here who have been emailing their SMPs, protesting, etc. The only replies I have ever had have been from Scottish Tories and Scottish Labour.
I’m in Dundee, and the two SNP SMPs who represent the city have never, not once deigned to reply. (Should add here that I’ve also emailed my SNP MP about several different issues including my concerns about this Bill, etc. over the last few years and he has replied to every one of them).
It’s the SNP and the Scottish Greens led by the odious Patrick Harvie who have lost the plot. We’ll find out tomorrow who voted which way.
I voted Green for years when they were a party that actually cared about environmental issues but that time has sadly long gone.

gdh I really thought they'd accept that sex offenders should be excluded from self-id.
There were some very good speeches on it.
The details on who exactly voted it down will be on ScotParl website tomorrow.

Seems the SNP isn't intent on stopping at cutting off its nose to spite its face, it's going for full decapitation.

Just whose are the people who want this bill overturned. No right minded person thinks it's normal.,Scotand has lost the plot.

Middle class self indulgence at its finest.