Keir Starmer, yearly review

I have read the report, I am questioning the wisdom of those who continually bringing up the issue of those who vote leave with a tone of weary contempt. I am a remainer and centre left. It just makes me wince when people do it. I

If some of the people who have just commented read the actual report, or even just looked at figure 1, they would see that the respondents in the survey were categorised under a whole range of factors, of which educational attainment was just one. The report isn’t inaccurate, it’s the spin some are putting on it in their own heads that is.

Katie59 I'm not suggesting that academic achievement is a guarantee of anything, except (hopefully) specialist knowledge. All I was doing is explaining what is meant. It's not surprising that there's a strong correlation between age and academic achievement because older people had fewer opportunities.

However, there's also a very strong correlation between areas which voted for Brexit and academic achievement (regardless of age). If you delve a bit deeper, this could be explained partly by the jobs people do and average wealth. So-called culture wars have also played a part, which is why Dominic Cummings (and others) were so keen on promoting the idea that Remainers were part of some mythical liberal global elite, living in North London suburbs, quaffing champagne.

Academic achievement is no guarantee of logic, common sense or success in life, career or business. If the Brexit vote proves anything it is how gullible voters are, believing the claims made during the campaign. Tabloid politics won and we are all the poorer for it, we live with the consequences because nothing is going to change quickly

Few people, expecially women, born before about 1950, have higher education qualifications or A levels. That's what they mean by 'less well educated'.

I don’t know about older people being ‘less well educated’ My experience is the reverse of this. Standards have dropped dramatically since the 1950s and 1960s.

ExperiencedNotOld

It was varian and Katie59 that choose to make those inferences. What also pees me off is that a vote was held, and Leave we did. Some people just cannot accept that as democracy in action.

I'm sorry, but they were merely reporting what the research found.

I have the same problem as you do when younger people complain about the selfish ignorant boomers who voted to leave, as if all of us voted leave. I didn't vote leave and neither did many of my contemporaries. But there's no point in getting upset about sweeping generalisations any more than there is in getting upset about research findings. There are always exceptions.

Casdon excellent interview. Reminds me of my Dad, though he was very far left explained to us as children that things were won step by step, not by some magical transformation. You held onto your principles but had to be pragmatic. You accept you can only travel at a speed that takes people with you. And accept you may only achieve little, which is certainly the case with the state of our nation atm.

ExperiencedNotOld as far as I can see, very few are suggesting we try and reverse the process, its a done deal.

What we do want is to ensure that trading and "people" relations are as effective as possible with our major trading neighbours. This means an adjustment to current relationships with the EU (not least to resolve the NI issue). We certainly would be very unwise to try and remain counting on our so called "special relationship" with the US.

Look at the state they are in. As far s I am concerned we need to be tactically closer to the EU in terms of world trading relationships not least because we wish to further such matters as climate protection and human rights. that is not turning the clock back: that is pragmatism in the present.

It was varian and Katie59 that choose to make those inferences. What also pees me off is that a vote was held, and Leave we did. Some people just cannot accept that as democracy in action.

I think we can probably agree that the Joseph Rowntree report has been well researched and is broadly accurate, although of course it doesn’t say, or even infer that all individual older people who voted leave were as ExperiencedNotOld suggests.

Moving on, there’s a very worthwhile interview with Angela Rayner on Sky news, which I think those of the left leaning faction of the Labour Party would do well to read/watch. Respect is due from me, I was not expecting her to have become such a pragmatist.
news.sky.com/story/principles-would-not-have-fed-me-angela-rayner-says-she-has-to-compromise-to-win-power-12783700

ExperiencedNotOld you do not have to justify your vote.

(I also voted leave)

I think a huge number of Brexit voters were not adequately informed nor aware of consequences (nor sought to do so). Nothing to do with achievement in education nor age.

Indeed, a lot of older people were aware of how the need for peace in Europe depending on good relations, trading and political/cultural, post WW2 -and voted remain.

The inference that Brexit voters were old, ill educated, believe in the death penalty etc really pees me off.
I voted Leave after a long examination of the available evidence and a check against my conscience. It was not a decision taken lightly. I still stand by it now, especially after seeing the continued waste of resources amongst the european parliament (a place I spent six hours visiting by the way).
I may not be in tune with many of you. But we live in a democracy and my right to make my own decision is at the very core.

Casdon Mon 09-Jan-23 11:24:30
I’m not so sure now that it’s going to be as much of an issue as it was even a year ago, because the tide is turning amongst voters, and the EU will be pleased that the UK government has changed to one which is more prepared to negotiate. c.newsnow.co.uk/A/1160194107?-850:14274
If Starmer can walk the path of improving relationships, and trading agreements with Europe, and demonstrate that the economic loss to the UK has lessened as a result he will be in a win, win situation. It’s not going to be easy, but the doors are definitely open both with the EU and voters for that to happen. He’d be a fool to promise the earth at this stage.

I agree. I also think Starmer and his front bench have a pretty good strategy for where we are now. I will be interested to see where he goes from here. We have a fair amount of time before we have to have an election. Only Sunak or the Tory MPs can decide when that will be until they reach the deadline.

Starmer seems good at waiting and planning, while saying just enough to get by. The test will come when they have to bring out their manifesto. It looks, to me, as if he has a fair chance of appealing to enough people unless, at some point, he has to bow to the obstreperous far left. But nothing has changed so fast as people's opinions in the last few years so we just have to wait and see.

Dickens

DaisyAnne

I don't think you're being attacked so much as challenged on the assumptions you make about people's voting habits.

Unless they tell you, you surely can't know their political affiliation?

If someone champions a particular policy or pledge from a party, it doesn't necessarily mean that they vote for them by default.

The word "leftist" was a quote from others.

"Other people's voting habits" are none of my business. I haven't commented on how any specific person votes. I don't know or want to know (unless they particularly want to say), so why would I?

On the other hand, what they support will fall into areas of politics the majority see as somewhere on the left/right spectrum. Why shouldn't I use that too? We have to have some sort of shorthand to have a conversation about these things.

I think you're making too much of what is, after all, just my opinion - just because it does not support yours perhaps? You certainly seem to have a problem with it.

Katie59

Part of the conclusions

Over three-quarters of Leave voters feel disillusioned with politicians; two-thirds support the death penalty; and well over half feel very strongly English. Over one third of Leave supporters hold all three of these attitudes,

Pretty much the way I see the voting, they wanted to believed the Brexit propaganda

On the subject of the death penalty I used to argue with a friend who supported it and explained to the best of my ability the reasons why it was abolished. She would accept the reasons but she never changed her mind. In this regard she was just like many Brexit supporters - could/would not change her mind despite all the evidence.

Part of the conclusions

Over three-quarters of Leave voters feel disillusioned with politicians; two-thirds support the death penalty; and well over half feel very strongly English. Over one third of Leave supporters hold all three of these attitudes,

Pretty much the way I see the voting, they wanted to believed the Brexit propaganda

The Joseph Rowntree Foundation have detailed, data based, information on the who, where and why of Brexit voting. It’s very interesting.

www.jrf.org.uk/report/brexit-vote-explained-poverty-low-skills-and-lack-opportunities

And The Sun hating Liverpool voted remain….which proves the point methinks….

"though I still don't understand why so many older voters, whose lives, in the main, were perfectly comfortable and not so adversely affected by tory austerity, voted for it. And who are still the largest group of those who still think that Brexit is a good thing."

Older voters are, on average, less well educated and far more likely to read newspapers The Express, The Daily Mail, The Sun, The Times and The Telegraph , which strongly directed them to vote Leave.

Post referendum analysis showed newspaper readership to be the strongest predictor of voting pattern.

I don't think that an improvement with relations with EU members in terms of trade standards and better customs arrangements are reversing Brexit, just common sense. Necessary to better function as trading partners.

Thats what all the people I speak to/know in the L Party are after as things stand in current climate. Plus we want to keep the European Court of Human Rights..

MaizieD

^I do think the Brexit issue is being overstated,^

In what way has i been overstated, and by whom, KAtie59?

The way that Starmers election prospects are affected I doubt many are going to vote differently because he might try to reverse Brexit.

MaizieD

God post, Dickens.

I largely agree with you about the reasons for the Leave vote, though I still don't understand why so many older voters, whose lives, in the main, were perfectly comfortable and not so adversely affected by tory austerity, voted for it. And who are still the largest group of those who still think that Brexit is a good thing.

I was prepared to accept Starmer choosing a more centrist line, if only to keep the right wing media off his back, but some of the stuff he and his shadow ministers have come out with, like Wes Streeting's latest pronouncements on GPs, have been very hard to reconcile even with that explanation of his caution.

I don't think his intentions are bad, just that he seems to be too much in thrall to the neoliberal market economy view of the world to bring about much change.

I will vote Labour, but in no great hope of much improvement in rebalancing society towards a more fair share for all of even the basics for a reasonable life.

I was prepared to accept Starmer choosing a more centrist line, if only to keep the right wing media off his back...

Yes, me too. I thought initially that was what he was doing - wisely. I'm sure the RW media are poised like vultures, just waiting for some "Lefty, Remoaner" pledges to pick over!

And I'm not optimistic - should he win - of much in the way of a sea-change in our economic (mis) fortune.

... though I still don't understand why so many older voters, whose lives, in the main, were perfectly comfortable and not so adversely affected by tory austerity, voted for it. And who are still the largest group of those who still think that Brexit is a good thing.

It puzzles me as well. Possibly older voters are aware that the Tories rely on their demographic vote and assume they will be 'looked after' on that basis. The possibility of the abandonment of the 'triple-lock' did garner some fierce reactions and mutterings - "they'll never get my vote again if they do" and similar responses were all over FB and other SM platforms! I think they (us) believe we have power and can therefore exert some control. Personally, I have no doubt that, should it become necessary to court the younger generation in order to preserve the Tory party's dominance (for example), pensioners would be dropped like a hot potato. If you couple that with the nostalgia for past times - times where 'foreigners' were regarded by some as slightly 'exotic' because there wee not so many of them in some areas, then it might offer an explanation - but I could be entirely wrong. It is actually something I can't really fathom, so my thinking might be way off course!

I think the biggest problem we face, the centre-left if you like - is that people, largely, don't understand how a national economy functions. Understandably too, because scholarly papers and economic / financial jargon is not easy to grasp... I've spent hours and hours pondering and puzzling over such papers as I didn't study Economics and am an utter novice. But my point is, that it's very easy for politicians and the media to manipulate people into believing that the economy is run along the lines of a household budget and convince them that only the Tories can manage it. Cameron and May banging on about the 'magic money tree' as an answer to some genuine questions, was dire. And now it's gained currency and people are using the phrase to convince themselves and others that we "can't afford" to fund the - what you have described as "basics". I'm not hopeful.

... with apologies to all those who do understand Economics on here and who know much, much more than I will ever know or could possibly know...

If Starmer can walk the path of improving relationships, and trading agreements with Europe,

I get the impression that he has had some contact with the EU over the past few years and it's been a bit more grown up than that of the government. It's all the flat negatives about even the SM that he comes out that are so dispiriting.

Dickens

MayBee70

Keir can’t seems to be getting it in the neck from all sides on Facebook. Remainers accuse him of selling out and brexiters accuse him of wanting to take us back into the EU.

Yes, I noticed that, too.

I said in another comment that he was trying to run with both hare and hounds and suggested that, ultimately, it wouldn't work. Most seem to disagree.

My argument is that we are too divided now as a nation to unite under any one party. It was possible I suppose, prior to Cameron's pledge to hold a referendum, where a broad centrist stance was viable. But I think Brexit was a Pandora's Box; for the first time people felt that their vote would actually count, and all the simmering rage and resentment against the Tories, Austerity, Cameron himself, the EU, the poverty in de-industrialised areas, the Metropolitan 'elite', immigrants, etc, etc - bubbled over. It was legitimised and given a 'voice'. Some Leave voters have admitted that they voted for Brexit to "sock it" to Cameron... I think the referendum became a repository for all the pent up rage that many disadvantaged people felt and, judging by the comments I've read, and heard, prior to the vote as well as after it, the EU was the perfect punch-bag. You might remember that Boris Johnson himself once said that he believed our problems did not all stem from Brussels, but were home-grown. And then he gave people the opportunity to blame Brussels because being in the hot-seat he couldn't allow the government to come under fire!
This is of course my own purely subjective opinion, and I know others will disagree.
I would still vote for Starmer and his party if Labour were likely to win in my constituency because I want to see this current government out of office. But they (Labour) don't stand a chance in my area, so it will have to be a tactical vote.
The election's a long way off, and who knows what "fresh hell" will be unleashed before then! Regardless, I think Starmer is going to have a very difficult tenure if he wins because, as you say, Remainers think he's sold them down the river, and the Brexiters he's courting, view him with suspicion - in spite of his assurances that it's a done deal and he's going to make it "work". He's given himself a tightrope, and I think he'll fall off it because I genuinely believe you have to choose either the hare or the hounds - if you don't 'deliver' to both, they'll both turn on you in the end!

I’m not so sure now that it’s going to be as much of an issue as it was even a year ago, because the tide is turning amongst voters, and the EU will be pleased that the UK government has changed to one which is more prepared to negotiate.
c.newsnow.co.uk/A/1160194107?-850:14274
If Starmer can walk the path of improving relationships, and trading agreements with Europe, and demonstrate that the economic loss to the UK has lessened as a result he will be in a win, win situation. It’s not going to be easy, but the doors are definitely open both with the EU and voters for that to happen. He’d be a fool to promise the earth at this stage.