Do the pros of sending tanks to Ukraine outweigh the cons?

can we recolonise the British Empire.

Don’t be ridiculous, after WW2 we couldn’t hold any of the countries, starting with India, the jewel in the crown and we certainly couldn’t hold anything now.

Russia is easily capable of holding onto the Donbas and Crimea
and do a lot of damage to the rest of Ukraine if they don’t agree to a ceasefire. Of course “IF” Ukraine were to raise an army of half a million men and “IF” NATO supply 500 tanks and all the other hardware Russia would have a big headache.

We will see, so far NATO has been drip feeding defensive weapons not arming them properly.

Don’t be ridiculous, after WW2 we couldn’t hold any of the countries, starting with India, the jewel in the crown and we certainly couldn’t hold anything now.

Oh, FGS, Katie59, you don't think I was being serious, do you?

MOnica of course the time since independence is irrelevant to the country's right to keep it, but it is relevant to the motivation of the aggressor. There are two sides to every war, and IMO best to try to understand both. That's all I mean.

This thread has wandered far from my first post, which was about the Challenger tanks. That's fine but I think I shall withdraw now.

MaizieD

^" He set out to annexe Ukraine"^
There is absolutely no evidence to support that claim. If that had been the aim, he could have taken Kiev on day one very easily.

So what was the point of the 'Special Operation', then, Normandygirl?

The point of the 'Special Operations' was because Russia believed from the actions of Ukraine [ ASOV battalions genocide} against the Russian speaking people in the Donbass region that Ukraine was developing into a Neo Nazi state with Russia phobic policies. Besides the genocide, there was also the banning of ethnic Russian people to speak their own language, including in their schools that had previously taught in Russian. Russia rightly or wrongly, felt duty bound to protect the people in these regions. That is why it has been these regions specifically targeted and not the northerly regions. Putin has stated many times that there is no intention of annexing Ukraine but a determination that the Russian speaking people in the Ukraine are given what was promised and can live free from fear. Nothing that Putin has done so far has shown that he was not being truthful about his intentions.
The further encroachment of NATO since 1991 was seen by Russia as proof of the USA's intention to go against any idea of putting the cold war behind them.
I agree that the Minsk agreements have been broken by both sides but no side can take the moral high road here. The post cold war agreements that stopped Russia from being threatened by the US led NATO from moving ever closer to Russia's borders, have all been disregarded by the west, resulting in NATO troops being present on 4 of it's borders. It is no surprise that Russia is not happy about this.
The OP's question was whether the UK should continue to supply arms to Ukraine and my view is NO. Not because of taking sides, but because every bomb, every bullet is another innocent life lost to a war that can only have one outcome and that is a peace agreement. Continuing to supply weapons is just prolonging the pain and suffering of all the citizens in this conflict and serves only to increase the profits of the war machine and those invested in them.

MaizieD

^Don’t be ridiculous, after WW2 we couldn’t hold any of the countries, starting with India, the jewel in the crown and we certainly couldn’t hold anything now.^

Oh, FGS, Katie59, you don't think I was being serious, do you?

Because of defence cuts the UKs ability is greatly degraded and the US is not much better. We have promised 14 Challenger 2 tanks, we have around 200 very few are usable because the cash isn’t available to maintain them. There are no plans to replace them with a new British design

We must help them, such brave people it could be you or I. Who will Russians go for next anyway.

there was also the banning of ethnic Russian people to speak their own language, including in their schools that had previously taught in Russian. Russia rightly or wrongly, felt duty bound to protect the people in these regions.

Well, as you ask, *Normandygirl, Russia wrongly thought it could interfere in the affairs of another independent sovereign country.

As to the truth of the claim: Ukraine’s language law, which has been implemented in phases, establishes Ukrainian as the country’s sole state language. The law requires Ukrainian to be primarily used in business, school and media settings. However, it does not ban the use of Russian or other languages. segeiLvrov's claim, which you repeat has been checked and found to be incorrect. Here is the source for this information. www.politifact.com/factchecks/2022/jun/08/sergey-lavrov/russian-has-not-been-banned-ukraine-despite-repeat/#sources

No.

I prefer war to be fought foreign soil. Send money and equipment.

MaizieD

nanna8

I still wonder what is the take on all the thousands of Russians that live there. Are they happy about their mother country moving in ? Are they ashamed of Putin’s aggression ? Some of them seem to welcome the Russian troops but perhaps they are scared to do otherwise? Do we really know what they want ?

Tell you what, nanna8, we'll send an army out to invade Australia and take it back under our direct control. After all, it was part of our Empire and a very large proportion of its population is of British descent, so I'm sure they'd be happy to lose their sovereignty and independence in order to rebuild the British Empire...

We'll torture and murder your civilians and raze your cities to the ground. Steal your children to re-educate them to be good little Britishers...

Of course, you all speak English, too, so that's another justification for invading you...

Hmm....

Hate to say it but that is the most stupid, irrelevant post I have ever read on here.Nothing whatsoever to do with my query. Just unpleasant and rude.

I'll be more succinct, then, nanna8.

How would you feel if it happened to you?

Normandygirl Given that Russia has the Wagner Group, which has a long and terrible history of atrocitys in Chechnya as well as in Ukraine, you stand on very shaky ground.

nanna8 From everything I have read the Russian element in the Ukranian population have rallied to the Ukrainian flag and are opposed to the Russian invasion. They see themselves, first and foremost as citizens of Ukraine.

M0nica

Normandygirl Given that Russia has the Wagner Group, which has a long and terrible history of atrocitys in Chechnya as well as in Ukraine, you stand on very shaky ground.

nanna8 From everything I have read the Russian element in the Ukranian population have rallied to the Ukrainian flag and are opposed to the Russian invasion. They see themselves, first and foremost as citizens of Ukraine.

That’s irrelevant to Russia the real reason is a secure corridor to Crimea which they see as strategically very important.
They dont fight by our rules, war is war, civilians get in the way that’s tough, they just dont care

That’s irrelevant to Russia the real reason is a secure corridor to Crimea which they see as strategically very important.

Oh dear, Katie59, and there's us being told that it's all about preventing the nazification of Ukraine and protecting the Russian speakers from being forced to drop their language. And that Putin never intended to take Kyiv...

I couldn’t believe your post Normandygirl you’ve swallowed all of Putin’s lies lock stock and barrel.
That dear Mr Putin who only wants to right the wrongs! 😡

Nazification was a total red herring, the original half baked attempt was to dominate Ukraine and prevent it from joining NATO, they did not expect Ukraine to fight and 100 thousand troops would be enough.
They are now reinforcing the land they occupy, liberating the Donbas is a face saving position for Putin, it’s going to take a massive effort to drive them back, will NATO provide enough weapons to do that?.

President Zelensky is a Russian speaking Ukrainian. There is no way he would have targeted his own people,.

President Zelenski is also a Jew, so there is no way he could legitimately be accused of being a Nazi.

Katie59 That’s irrelevant to Russia the real reason is a secure corridor to Crimea which they see as strategically very important.

Why do they need a secure corridor to Crimea? It is part of Ukraine

M0nica

Katie59 That’s irrelevant to Russia the real reason is a secure corridor to Crimea which they see as strategically very important.

Why do they need a secure corridor to Crimea? It is part of Ukraine

We think it is part of Ukraine but Russia has declared Crimea and the rest of the occupied territory as part of Russia. Polititians can say what they like in support of Ukraine and drip feed mainly defensive weapons, the military will be very worried about a much larger campaign to drive Russia back.

Sanctions are having little effect on Russia, it would be a mistake to underestimate their willingness to fight hard to retain what they occupy.

I chose this link because it is among the most cautious of those on the economic effects of sanctions on Russia, and from a left leaning paper. Articles from other sources consider the sanctions to be even more effective.
www.theguardian.com/business/2022/oct/08/behind-moscows-bluster-sanctions-are-making-russia-suffer

The economic effects of Ukraine are being felt in Russia but
probably no more than the rest of Europe, in terms of military cost both sides are using mostly cold war stockpiles. In terms of technology, they are being denied from the west but China is quite capable of sending what they need.

It seems the US is saying the only option is for Germany to send Tanks and other heavy armaments, Germany is very wary of getting involved in a major war.

Once Ukraine is occupied by Russia, other countries once part of the Russian empire will soon follow.

I find it very strange that those who would be up in arms if the British were to try to reoccupy their empire can be so laid back when it is ex-subject states of other ruthless repressive regimes like Russia or China.

Yes, there is a price to be paid in deaths, and destruction. but unless we are all prepared to accept the rule of anyone who wants to take over our country, or anyone elses country, and rule us with an oppressive and violent way (think Iran, North Korea, Afghanistan) and some other of the tinpot dictatorships around the world) then there must be a red line where we say, thus far and no further.

Ukraine was invaded by a neighbour who had no reason or just cause to invade them. If we do not stand up for other countries when they are attacked, we might as well invite the Russians to occupy the UK, with all that would entail.

I found this on Facebook

Ukrainian poet Oleksandr Oles (1878–1944) wrote a poem "Remember" (other title "Europe was silent") in 1931. I tried to translate this poem from Ukrainian into English to share it with those who are now discovering Ukrainian authors and some pages from the past (and present) of Ukraine.

REMEMBER
by Oleksandr Oles
translated by Iryna Tsilyk

When tortured Ukraine was struggling for life
And fighting adversaries vicious and violent,
It needed support in its boundless strife,
But Europe was silent.

When fearless Ukraine was waning in battle,
The rivers of blood spilled around to find
Some help for unequal and resolute struggle,
But Europe was blind.

When weakened Ukraine was reined by force
To labor for tyranny cruel and giant,
Then even the mute rocks were heard, but of course
Old Europe was silent.

When hungry Ukraine was harvesting wheat
To feed the insatiable butcher regardless
Of those who wanted to live and to eat,
Old Europe was heartless.

When wounded Ukraine lost hope and faith,
Turned into a mass grave and desolate island,
Then even true evil showed its gentle face,
But Europe was silent.

22.08.1931

We cannot let this happen again.

M0nica

Putin wants to rebuild Russia as it was in 1989. Ruling everywhere from the Baltic to the Pacific. Lands that were given their independence in that year.

He started small supporting rebellions in remote areas of Georgia, and Moldavia, recently he has supported the government in Belorus. It is now a client state. he has done all this with one eye on NATO, to see how it has reacted - and, he saw that NATO was doing nothing.

Then in 2014, he invaded the Crimea and supported pro-russian groups in the Donbas region. Once again he had got away with it. We faced a future of Putin gradually re-occupying and recreating the old Soviet Union and creating another military state. That is why NATO had to say, thus far and no further.

Remember the poem by Martin Niemoller?

First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist
Then they came for the Socialists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist
Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew
Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me

Replace communist, socialist, jew, with Ukraine, Moldavia, Poland, Romania etc.

That is what will happen if we do not support Ukraine.

Exactly!

A negotiated solution would involve Ukraine giving up some of it’s land and any people that stayed there.
Why should they?
Would the UK give up part of England or Wales for example because another country invaded?
No. Thought not.