Do the pros of sending tanks to Ukraine outweigh the cons?

Latest report from Davos summit, Germany is willing to send tanks if the US also sends tanks, it seems to me very sensible that if they are going to escalate the war it does not want to be “half cocked”.
No response from the US yet.

Thanks MOnica and MaizieD for your contributions. No one wants war and a negotiated peace plan would of course be the best outcome. That would need Putin to acknowledge war crimes and recognise he’s the aggressor not the victim. There’s no evidence to suggest that’s remotely possible.

War in Europe, another deranged dictator

We think it is part of Ukraine but Russia has declared Crimea and the rest of the occupied territory as part of Russia

Declaring something does not necessarily make it true.
Even invading and occupying a country does not capture the hearts and minds of its citizens.

Katie59

Latest report from Davos summit, Germany is willing to send tanks if the US also sends tanks, it seems to me very sensible that if they are going to escalate the war it does not want to be “half cocked”.
No response from the US yet.

I don’t think it’s the availability or the cost of sending tanks, it’s the message implied to Putin that the US, in particular, is acting as an aggressor.
There’s many layers to this issue, not immediately apparent to onlookers.
Someone posted a while back about Crimea being Russia once - well it was part of the USSR, known a ‘Russia’ but Crimea was never part of modern Russia.

The original question was

Do the pros of sending tanks to Ukraine outweigh the cons?

In my view, yes, certainly. Putin is an aggressor. He has invaded a sovereign country and smashed it to bits. Hitler did the same. Appeasement doesn’t work, if it did , WW2 would never have happened because Neville Chamberlain would have secured peace in our time after his negotiations with Hitler. Putin is an aggressive bully and he will not negotiate unless he is given a large slice of Ukraine. That may be acceptable to the British public, and the populations of other countries in the EU or America, or elsewhere, but I very much doubt it would be acceptable to the Ukrainians. It wouldn’t be acceptable to British people if an aggressive bully invaded Britain and would only negotiate when given a large slice of Britain would it? Which bit would be given away? The bit you live in or the bit I live in? No! You cannot appease a bully.

The US seems to be keeping Ukraine at arms length, supplying defensive weapons only and restricting how they are used. They have prohibited their use beyond the occupied land, until the US changes that policy it’s hard to see Germany or anyone else escalating to a large scale offensive campaign.

Despite their apparent support for Ukraine they don’t want to get into a large scale confrontation with Russia. They may well see a cease fire and rebuild Ukraine within NATO as a better long term objective than getting into a war with a maniac.

How heartening to read that one of the poorest countries in the eu has a get go attitude. www.politico.eu/article/bulgaria-volodymyr-zelenskyy-kiril-petkov-poorest-country-eu-ukraine/

If Ukraine loses this war then who is next on their radar?

The USA is in a difficult postion like it or not, its size and past mean that it is seen as the lead aggressor country, with a history of trying to dominate the world - just like Russia.

Russia at the moment would do absolutely anything to get the US really actively involved in the Ukraine situation because it can then lever the war up a level by presenting it as not a local unjustified invasion but a wholescale war of the superpowers. with the US on its borders and threatening the government of Russia.

Throughout this conflict the US has stood back and let the other NATO countries do the supplying and ensuring that everything done with those supplies is defensive only.

A lot of the hoo ha about tanks is about shouting up the odds. Tanks are largely yesterday's weapon, they are bulky and slow and as we have seen so clearly in this war so far, they can readily be skewered and blown up by a drone. However, against a badly trained and equiped army like that of the Russians, they are having to buy in drones from Iran and North Korea. They can be very useful.

The US also has to consider the Taiwan situation, part of that is not antagonizing the aggressor so that he lashes out disastrously.

maddyone

The original question was

Do the pros of sending tanks to Ukraine outweigh the cons?

In my view, yes, certainly. Putin is an aggressor. He has invaded a sovereign country and smashed it to bits. Hitler did the same. Appeasement doesn’t work, if it did , WW2 would never have happened because Neville Chamberlain would have secured peace in our time after his negotiations with Hitler. Putin is an aggressive bully and he will not negotiate unless he is given a large slice of Ukraine. That may be acceptable to the British public, and the populations of other countries in the EU or America, or elsewhere, but I very much doubt it would be acceptable to the Ukrainians. It wouldn’t be acceptable to British people if an aggressive bully invaded Britain and would only negotiate when given a large slice of Britain would it? Which bit would be given away? The bit you live in or the bit I live in? No! You cannot appease a bully.

Excellent. Can't appease a bully.

No fighting here, we want to send equipment to the Ukraine.

As Zelensky poignantly said "We are doing the dying - please just send us the weapons."

We must bear in mind that Kyiv is only 1,200 miles from London and no, a bully can't be appeased, especially one who seems to have gone mad.

Excellent post, maddyone.

History has shown that you can't appease a bully.

Look what happened after the Allies beat Hitler.
In his wake comes another bully marching across Europe.

Sparklefizz

As Zelensky poignantly said "We are doing the dying - please just send us the weapons."

We must bear in mind that Kyiv is only 1,200 miles from London and no, a bully can't be appeased, especially one who seems to have gone mad.

This and what maddyone says

It’s our recent history, let’s remember learn and face up to psychopaths

What a 3 ring circus the German defence ministry is. No wonder it’s taking so long. I expected better from the Germans

carnegieeurope.eu/2023/01/19/new-german-defense-minister-s-biggest-challenge-isn-t-ukraine-pub-88847

Germany suffers from post WW2 reluctance to get involved in any military activity, Japan is similar, it policy is entirely defense. However as part of NATO they provide by far the largest amount of conventional weaponry notably over 2000 modern Leopard tanks.
In my opinion they should not get involved in a major confrontation in Ukraine unless the US is fully backing them, the risk of Putin striking targets outside Ukraine is a real one, and the threat of a nuclear strike should not be ruled out. It takes time to assemble and train an effective army and they are not likely to publicize what is going on.

All this dithering from Germany is worrying me, whilst the inhabitants of Ukraine are being ruthlessly murderer by that mad man Putin.

Ukraine needs the help of ALL the NATO members NOW!

The Germans play a big part in NATO. Sixteen out of twenty seven C in C’s of NATO’s Allied Joint Force Command in the Netherlands have been German. It makes me wonder, if push came to shove, and we had another German commander, how much autonomy in decision making he would have from his dithering government. The current incumbent is Italian; we have held it once. Just musing.

maddyone

The original question was

Do the pros of sending tanks to Ukraine outweigh the cons?

In my view, yes, certainly. Putin is an aggressor. He has invaded a sovereign country and smashed it to bits. Hitler did the same. Appeasement doesn’t work, if it did , WW2 would never have happened because Neville Chamberlain would have secured peace in our time after his negotiations with Hitler. Putin is an aggressive bully and he will not negotiate unless he is given a large slice of Ukraine. That may be acceptable to the British public, and the populations of other countries in the EU or America, or elsewhere, but I very much doubt it would be acceptable to the Ukrainians. It wouldn’t be acceptable to British people if an aggressive bully invaded Britain and would only negotiate when given a large slice of Britain would it? Which bit would be given away? The bit you live in or the bit I live in? No! You cannot appease a bully.

Excellent answer, maddyone.

www.express.co.uk/news/world/1723253/Russia-war-Ukraine-tanks-T-14-Ramstein-putin-Volodymyr-Zelensky

A reminder not to get “gung-ho” over Ukraine

Katie59

Germany suffers from post WW2 reluctance to get involved in any military activity, Japan is similar, it policy is entirely defense. However as part of NATO they provide by far the largest amount of conventional weaponry notably over 2000 modern Leopard tanks.
In my opinion they should not get involved in a major confrontation in Ukraine unless the US is fully backing them, the risk of Putin striking targets outside Ukraine is a real one, and the threat of a nuclear strike should not be ruled out. It takes time to assemble and train an effective army and they are not likely to publicize what is going on.

President Putin will not knowingly/willingly strike targets outside of Ukraine.

Russian would be vulnerable to multiple strikes from Allied Forces.

It’s impossible to negotiate with President Putin as he is in the mindset that he has done nothing wrong, which is the line being broadcast on all Russian State Media.

The world has to arm Ukraine, it has been invaded and systematically destroyed by an aggressor.

Sending arms and equipment will always be preferable to boots on the ground

GrannyGravy13, Sending arms and equipment will always be preferable to boots on the ground

Indeed, send arms, equipment and money, not troops.

Isn’t Germany’s chancellor Olaf Schultz a friend of Putin? Am sure I’ve read that in the past.

Germany has so far blocked other countries from sending the German manufactured Leopard Tanks.

If these Countries decide to ignore Germany and ship the Tanks to Ukraine they will immediately be put on a list and unable to purchase any armaments from German for the foreseeable future, which would/could result in a big downturn in Germanys Arms Manufacturing Industry.

I think it’s about time to call Germany’s bluff.

GrannyGravy13

Germany has so far blocked other countries from sending the German manufactured Leopard Tanks.

If these Countries decide to ignore Germany and ship the Tanks to Ukraine they will immediately be put on a list and unable to purchase any armaments from German for the foreseeable future, which would/could result in a big downturn in Germanys Arms Manufacturing Industry.

I think it’s about time to call Germany’s bluff.

They are not stupid NATO either supplies together or not at all Putin would just love for NATO to fall apart. the UKs Challengers will be useful in defence until a larger army is assembled - or not as the case may be.