Is it OK to break the law if you are a Tory?

Newdawn

Johnson set this very low bar. Although there are some Labour MPs I dislike, I am looking forward to a Labour govt

And soon we can all be reading about the Boris Johnson era as pm. I don’t know if it’s going to be published under his Genius of series, Genius of William Shakespeare which has a delay in delivery of manuscript.

What Fleurpepper said was absolutely clear - she spoke in the context of Tories in government, and referred to 'so many of them' being guilty - not all of them. Seems clear to me what she's saying, and more to the point seems also accurate given the mountain of evidence we have of tax evasion - past or present - I rest my case with the PM's wife.

As for good and bad in all walks of life - yes, true statement, but it's a question of balance - more good than bad in certain areas and vice versa - unfortunately the amount of privilege in the Tory government exceeds that in many other walks of life - check out the type of education received by Tory MPs as just one indicator.

The PM’s wife was not guilty of tax evasion. Please explain the ‘mountain of evidence of tax evasion’. I don’t think you know the difference between evasion and avoidance. It’s a very important one.

GoldenAge

What Fleurpepper said was absolutely clear - she spoke in the context of Tories in government, and referred to 'so many of them' being guilty - not all of them. Seems clear to me what she's saying, and more to the point seems also accurate given the mountain of evidence we have of tax evasion - past or present - I rest my case with the PM's wife.

As for good and bad in all walks of life - yes, true statement, but it's a question of balance - more good than bad in certain areas and vice versa - unfortunately the amount of privilege in the Tory government exceeds that in many other walks of life - check out the type of education received by Tory MPs as just one indicator.

The PM wife lawfully avoided. Legally.

Vote to change the tax laws, but now is now.

I thought she gave up her status and will now be paying?

Norah yes she has givenup her non-dom status.

She did indeed Norah.

Hard to find concrete information, but try this elderly article (it's not dated, but clearly written between 2016 - 2021)

Some quotes:

Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs (HMRC) was created in 2005 by the merger of the Inland Revenue and Her Majesty’s Customs and Excise. The newly formed HMRC had around 104,000 staff. In 2017 the headcount in HMRC stands at approximately 58,000, but under proposals ironically titled “Building Our Future” they intend to cut thousands more jobs by 2021.

HMRC’s budget after years of systematic cuts was 40% less in 2016 than in 2000.

For more than a decade HMRC has faced year on year cuts to funding at the same time as ongoing internal re-organisations. Together these have led to a situation where HMRC has been variously described as a government department in “crisis” and “not fit for purpose”.

Staff morale is so low that even in areas where HMRC is not seeking to cut jobs, experienced staff are leaving in droves, worn down by years of pointless “change management” and relocations that never lead to better efficiencies, either cost-wise or service-wise. This is set against a backdrop of a tax code of more than 16,000 pages, a tax gap of approximately £119bn (see below) and a complete dismantling of face- to-face services to the public.

www.taxjustice.uk/tax-takes-6.html

There was one in the financial Times that looked promising, but behind a pay wall. I'm going to have to bite the bullet and get a digital subscription. I think.

Because of cuts in staff and funding HMRC is consistently failing to collect £30 - 40 billion of tax each year. That's the government's own estimates. Check out 'The Tax Gap'

MaizieD that’s good sleuthing. I wish my brother was still alive as he could have explained it. I think you are making sense!

It probably IS all the tories though...well most of them anyway, because they're brought up all posh and have money & are entitled and are already aware of this way of life and its easy enough to repeat it allover again isnt it? Then they go into politics and well its there for the taking. So MOST of them will do i imgine..not ALL- but most of them will be,where they can.We only have to look at the last 3 yrs for evidence of all this..🙄

The tory MP's think they can do & say whatever they like these days as theyve had such a shining example in Boris in my opinion.😂

You’ve investigated the education and upbringing each of them had then? No, I thought not.

Nannan2

It probably IS all the tories though...well most of them anyway, because they're brought up all posh and have money & are entitled and are already aware of this way of life and its easy enough to repeat it allover again isnt it? Then they go into politics and well its there for the taking. So MOST of them will do i imgine..not ALL- but most of them will be,where they can.We only have to look at the last 3 yrs for evidence of all this..🙄

Douglas Ross; father was a cattleman and he himself went to College to study agriculture.

David Duguid: Worked as an engineer at BP.

Annie Wells, MSP: Worked in M&S shops in Glasgow.

Not all Tories were born with a silver spoon. I have lots of reasons to dislike them but being "posh" isn't one of them.

Exception to prove the rule GSM 😉

MaizieD Civil Service World 12th January 2023 article by Jackie Smith is a good start on Inland Revenue

That’s right volver. And I always quote the late David Amess to those who say they’re all in it for themselves. Many could earn far more than an MP’s salary.

Nannan2
It probably IS all the tories though.
Tut tut. That counts as exaggeration.

Germanshepherdsmum

That’s right volver. And I always quote the late David Amess to those who say they’re all in it for themselves. Many could earn far more than an MP’s salary.

I can't abide Douglas Ross but I don't think he's posh or crooked!

He’s a useful example though!😊

Yes, the more powerful you are the more loopholes there are for you to evade tax, but God help you if you are the person in the street and they think you have been a benefit cheat. If a tory breaks the law they should be held accountable but they are not. I personally think they should close all the legal tax loopholes that enable the rich and powerful to avoid paying their fair share of tax. The ordinary Joe Bloggs gets hammered for tax, and at present they are trying to dismantle the heating allowance for over-60's which we have paid into!! They are not giving us anything. They are trying to make it means tested which would mean only those on basic state pension or Pension Credit will receive it. Quite a few of us are over the threshhold for Pension Credit. Yes tories who break the law should face justice, but they won't.

Oh dear. The loopholes are the loopholes and the number of them doesn’t vary depending on how powerful someone is. ‘If a Tory breaks the law they should be held accountable but they are not.’ Evidence please? Everyone who breaks the law should face justice, whether that’s a speeding ticket or a prison sentence. But exploiting a loophole to avoid paying tax is not breaking the law. How often does it have to be said?

If you want to be more scientific in your analysis of social class, the Registrar General’s scale is a good start.

I have not lost contact with friends who are still working in the HMRC since I left, and what Maizie said is absolutely correct. Staff cuts have been tremendous, which of course has meant that the work previously done is now not carried out at the level that should be carried out.

Staff are stretched and stressed and moral is continuously low. It is grim.

Whitewavemark2 the article in Civil Service News 12 January is very good at figures. 40 billion in lost taxes for a start due to insufficient staff.

I think we should perhaps have a thread just devoted to the effects of cuts in the civil service.

It is hard to believe that only 4% of asylum claims are dealt within a year (I'm sorry but I can't find the reference)

It is hard to believe that only 7% of security checks required for people to be engaged in high security risk occupations are carried out within six months, as they are supposed to be.

Meanwhile Jacob Rees Mogg and his ERGs are seriously proposing a piece of legislation which would commit the government to abolishing about 4000 UK laws derived from our former membership of the EU, by the end of this year!!!! - requiring the full-time work of how many thousands of civil servants?

www.gransnet.com/forums/news_and_politics/1320278-Jacob-Rees-Moggs-bonfire-of-EU-laws