The NHS is gone ...

I must query the expression used by someone posting on this thread, they referred to queue jumping by going private. How can this be queue jumping because everyone who pays and leaves the waiting list the that list becomes shorter so the next person moves up. The nhs cannot continue as it is, the hospitals are run down, my mother lay in a corridor for them was in a and e for 10 hours, she is now on a ward in a local hospital where there’s a man running around swearing and acting violent they can’t control him, one lady didn’t go to bed she was so scared, discharged herself today. Something needs to be done but I really think those who can should pay

Just not as simple as that Ethel. No it does not work like that at all.

When you have a huge shortage of doctors and nurses, and other staff - those going private do NOT take the pressure off. They add to it, in many many ways.

Other system in Europe for instance, are not allowed to exclude those with pre-exisiting conditions. All private insurance in the UK and USA are based on age, and pre-existing conditions. Either by excluding them totally, or by making the premiums massively expensive.

All private insurance in the UK and USA are based on age, and pre-existing conditions. Either by excluding them totally, or by making the premiums massively expensive.

The above is irrelevant. People with a need for continuing care, prescriptions etc are still using the NHS for this kind of mdical care - an also for acute, emergency and very serious illness, but using the private health facilities for other care.

Most people use the private system selectively. For consultations, and for routine operations where there are long waiting lists, or when they have suffered poor treatment in the NHS and are now distrustful of it.

A significant number of private patients are self-funding. Private health insurance is expensive and you stand little or no chance of getting your money's worth. Many years ago we set up a savings account into which we put a small sum of money every month. Over the years it has mounted up, and this is how we have funded a number of consultations with specialists for both us and our children. We have since discovered just how many, older people in particular, have done the same thing.

Older people are also using life time savings and even equity release to fund private health care.

I have asked several times for the evidence that the government agenda is an American style health system and answer comes there none. Only tales of NHS contracting work out, which it has been doing since it was founded. Contracting out has nothing to do with privatising the health system.

The rot was set by Maggie Thatcher when she introduced private health care companies into the UK with an eventually outcome that we would have health care as they have in the US - because, of course, it works so well there, doesn't it!

''The above is irrelevant''

it is 100% totally and utterly relevant, au contraire! It is all linked. We have a shortage of doctors, nurses and other staff- and if they spend a large % working on private care, which takes an awful lot more time and resources than NHS- then that makes everything much worse for those who can't afford it. Quite simple, really (and sadly).

I agree with you Fleurpepper. It's absolutely relevant. Staff working in the private sector can't be in two places at once, so the NHS is being deprived of staff. Not only that, but there's no incentive to fund the NHS adequately, if those with power can just pay for their treatment anyway.

MOnica You have been told why the government isn't stupid enough to be honest about its intentions.

MOnica ''
I have asked several times for the evidence that the government agenda is an American style health system and answer comes there none.''

how about you put forward evidence to the contrary. all the signs point to a USA type system- but please show us evidence to the contrary.

As for Private Health care taken pressure off the NHS- it would take quite a while for me to put the case to prove the contrary.
I shall start at the simplest level- an NHS appointment is 10 minutes max for a GP, but 30 and more minutes for a private appointment. Now with a shortage of doctors, nurses and other staff- you try and multiply this for Consultants appointments and operations. More space, more facilities, more time- mostly for the 'rich, lucrative and worried well' and less and less for the rest. As for Private Insurance, based on profit and more profit, the older and the more pre exisiting conditions, and the most difficult, expensive or impossible. It just does NOT add up.

Incidentally "contracting out" on a massive scale has everything to do with privatising healthcare.

yes, and essential operations done privately under the pseudo NHS flag, are just expensive bribes, to create a need, a comparatively positive experience, a sort of free bonus ...

anyone with a realistic view of life will know that nothing is free, especially not in private health care. Once the seed of need and want is planted ... and waiting and pain on the other side- you can just add on the dollars.

Ever read the theory of privatisation? Defund, add pain, and need, and want, give bribes and tasters - then bob is your uncle (but only for those who can pay for it and s*d the rest).

How naive you all are.

M0nica

How naive you all are.

well, it seems that it is very much a case of pot and kettle.

What is your experience in the field? Put forwards your evidence, please.

Please tell me how private insurance works. Is it not based on profit and risk assessment? And for health care on age and pre-exisiting conditions? Why is saying this naive? Don't give one sentence replies- Put your evidence into balanced arguments.

yes, and essential operations done privately under the pseudo NHS flag, are just expensive bribes, to create a need, a comparatively positive experience, a sort of free bonus ...

This has been happening for very many years.
It must be 20 or so years ago that DD had an operation carried out in a private hospital courtesy of the NHS and we have heard of many instances since then.
It was a Labour initiative. It's nothing new.

Very true, Callistemon. Tony Blair was very keen to utilise private healthcare alongside the NHS. This from 2004.

Tony Blair today welcomed 11 private healthcare providers into the "NHS family", as he promised them the chance to gain a stronger foothold in the NHS

Predicting that the private sector would soon provide up to 40% of NHS operations, Mr Blair said the independent providers could help drive up the quality of service to patients which he said was the "most important thing"

www.theguardian.com/society/2006/feb/16/health.politics

Mrs Blair was so keen she co-founded a private healthcare firm which was to operate here in the UK, but based in the Cayman Islands.
It went into liquidation in 2015.

Two wrongs have never made a right!

Just because something isn't new, it doesn't mean that it has to continue or even be more prevalent.

FWIW I don't remember that it was ever this difficult to get a GP appointment under the Blair government, nor do I remember such long ambulance queues.

M0nica

How naive you all are.

Ahem!

Zoejory

Very true, Callistemon. Tony Blair was very keen to utilise private healthcare alongside the NHS. This from 2004.

Tony Blair today welcomed 11 private healthcare providers into the "NHS family", as he promised them the chance to gain a stronger foothold in the NHS

Predicting that the private sector would soon provide up to 40% of NHS operations, Mr Blair said the independent providers could help drive up the quality of service to patients which he said was the "most important thing"

www.theguardian.com/society/2006/feb/16/health.politics

It’s important to understand context. Labour inherited long waiting lists in 1997, and managing them to bring the service back to a state of control was the priority. Using private healthcare to support activity within the NHS is a very different ideological concept to the public paying for treatment. Fundamentally that is the difference between the two parties, Labour have never supported an NHS which is not free to all at point of use.

growstuff

Two wrongs have never made a right!

Just because something isn't new, it doesn't mean that it has to continue or even be more prevalent.

FWIW I don't remember that it was ever this difficult to get a GP appointment under the Blair government, nor do I remember such long ambulance queues.

Was it wrong?

It seemed to be a good solution at the time. DD got her operation done promptly and was able to go off travelling as planned.
Friends got their cataracts, hips, knees done at a facility in England which was private/NHS and could get on with their lives.

Would these surgeons work full-tme for the NHS?
No, possibly not because of the rules about pension contributions and tax.

Yet another NHS Consultant was on TV the other day because he is leaving, even though he wants to continue working in the NHS, because of the complex tax rules regarding pensions.

He really wants to continue working for the NHS but the rules regarding pension make this financially impractical.

Callistemon21

growstuff

Two wrongs have never made a right!

Just because something isn't new, it doesn't mean that it has to continue or even be more prevalent.

FWIW I don't remember that it was ever this difficult to get a GP appointment under the Blair government, nor do I remember such long ambulance queues.

Was it wrong?

It seemed to be a good solution at the time. DD got her operation done promptly and was able to go off travelling as planned.
Friends got their cataracts, hips, knees done at a facility in England which was private/NHS and could get on with their lives.

Would these surgeons work full-tme for the NHS?
No, possibly not because of the rules about pension contributions and tax.

Yet another NHS Consultant was on TV the other day because he is leaving, even though he wants to continue working in the NHS, because of the complex tax rules regarding pensions.

He really wants to continue working for the NHS but the rules regarding pension make this financially impractical.

It’s this. The government have caused the problem, it’s not been created within the NHS.
commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-8626/

Casdon

Zoejory

Very true, Callistemon. Tony Blair was very keen to utilise private healthcare alongside the NHS. This from 2004.

Tony Blair today welcomed 11 private healthcare providers into the "NHS family", as he promised them the chance to gain a stronger foothold in the NHS

Predicting that the private sector would soon provide up to 40% of NHS operations, Mr Blair said the independent providers could help drive up the quality of service to patients which he said was the "most important thing"

www.theguardian.com/society/2006/feb/16/health.politics

It’s important to understand context. Labour inherited long waiting lists in 1997, and managing them to bring the service back to a state of control was the priority. Using private healthcare to support activity within the NHS is a very different ideological concept to the public paying for treatment. Fundamentally that is the difference between the two parties, Labour have never supported an NHS which is not free to all at point of use.

PFIs have cost the NHS more in the long run.

John Major introduced them but Tony Blair expanded them.

Of course, there are no PFIs in Wales but Wales is no better than England for healthcare.

Casdon

Zoejory

Very true, Callistemon. Tony Blair was very keen to utilise private healthcare alongside the NHS. This from 2004.

Tony Blair today welcomed 11 private healthcare providers into the "NHS family", as he promised them the chance to gain a stronger foothold in the NHS

Predicting that the private sector would soon provide up to 40% of NHS operations, Mr Blair said the independent providers could help drive up the quality of service to patients which he said was the "most important thing"

www.theguardian.com/society/2006/feb/16/health.politics

It’s important to understand context. Labour inherited long waiting lists in 1997, and managing them to bring the service back to a state of control was the priority. Using private healthcare to support activity within the NHS is a very different ideological concept to the public paying for treatment. Fundamentally that is the difference between the two parties, Labour have never supported an NHS which is not free to all at point of use.

It is important to understand context. So what was going on in 1974?

navigator.health.org.uk/theme/labour-attempts-abolish-private-provision-nhs

Has the NHS ever been free of financial problems?

It's worse than ever now, though, as so many of us are living far longer lives - with many more years of poor health. The costs are far higher, too, as so many new tests and treatments exist that just weren't available in the past. Demand for services has gone through the roof!

Lots of private companies operate within the nhs - services are put out to tender and the private companies bid for them, they employ their own staff as part of the service level agreement, they pay their own staff costs - saves the nhs a fortune.

I don’t think so,* Boing* The NHS TRAINED these clinicians in the first place and will step in if anything goes wrong, pushing poorer people out of the way. (Cheque-book medicine doesn’t cover emergency care). Anyone who has jumped the queue by ‘going private’ is responsible for the demise of the NHS and should be ashamed. Services should be prioritised according to clinical need, not the ability to pay.

Zoejory

Casdon

Zoejory

Very true, Callistemon. Tony Blair was very keen to utilise private healthcare alongside the NHS. This from 2004.

Tony Blair today welcomed 11 private healthcare providers into the "NHS family", as he promised them the chance to gain a stronger foothold in the NHS

Predicting that the private sector would soon provide up to 40% of NHS operations, Mr Blair said the independent providers could help drive up the quality of service to patients which he said was the "most important thing"

www.theguardian.com/society/2006/feb/16/health.politics

It’s important to understand context. Labour inherited long waiting lists in 1997, and managing them to bring the service back to a state of control was the priority. Using private healthcare to support activity within the NHS is a very different ideological concept to the public paying for treatment. Fundamentally that is the difference between the two parties, Labour have never supported an NHS which is not free to all at point of use.

It is important to understand context. So what was going on in 1974?

navigator.health.org.uk/theme/labour-attempts-abolish-private-provision-nhs

Has the NHS ever been free of financial problems?

Sky News headlines this morning. This explains better what I was trying to say.
news.sky.com/story/nhs-crisis-charging-patients-who-can-afford-it-or-free-for-all-future-of-health-service-sparks-fierce-debate-12795631
We’ve moved on since 1974, having worked in the service for over 40 years I know very well about the conflicts which have always existed about private medicine co-existing, but the principle of free at the point of care is still the overriding Labour plan.