Sometimes I am ashamed

Do you actually think the GRR Bill, as put forward by Sturgeon et al, is a good idea, V?

Well Baggs I don't know. I said that weeks ago but got all sorts of abuse for being disingenuous, but seriously, I don't know.

But what I do know is that people are using this to support silly ideas about the bogey men coming to get them, just because the bogey man has a bit of paper with his name on it. And using it to criticise the Scottish government, and the SNP and their leader in particular. The whole debate has lost its way.

Thank you for asking though Baggs.

^carping[

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

volver

Rosie51

Nobody will become a rapist or sex abuser because of self ID but it will facilitate easier access to potential victims when they're in a vulnerable position ie hospital wards, refuges, changing rooms or other areas where there could be a reasonable expectation of a single sex space.

So.

Given that we don't have Self ID at the moment and that is what all the fuss is about.

A rapist has decided he's really a woman and wants to live as such. They are on the path to transition. We've had all sorts of comments about how they look like a man (the lipstick stuff). Everybody has to call them "she". They are going to a woman's prison, but being segregated, because that option is always open to the Prison Service irrespective of who you are.

And so having a piece of paper saying they are a woman would have changed things how?

I thought you prided yourself on your comprehension skills? If you read my post you've quoted I think it shows my concerns for going forward, when self ID will facilitate easier access to potential victims.
You show a rapist more consideration than his victims. Not one word of sympathy for the added trauma they may have suffered having to lie and say they were raped by a woman. A 'woman' who was definitely living as a man when he raped them, using a man's name and presentation.

Thanks for replying honestly. I don't agree on the bogey men front. I think there are genuine dangers that could affect women badly, and I don't think NS has addressed them well, so I don't think it's a good bill.

Nothing against people transing as adults but I think women's spaces and the very idea of womanhood (adult human female) need to be protected.

Well to everybody, with the exception of Baggs.

I'm sorry I didn't cover every nuance of this argument in every post I've made. It would have made for a very long thread.

About feeling ashamed of one's country.

I am very glad to have been born in the UK, and I am still proud of our NHS and our remaining bits of social security, but I must admit to being ashamed of our present Government in England. There seems to be so much corruption and lack of empathy at the moment and I do feel it reflects on me as an English person.
I am however, very proud of my city (Manchester) which I think is more caring of its citizens than the Government in Westminster.
I am also glad that I live in an area which has been described as "the wokest area of the wokest city in the country"

With regard to the people holding the placard advocating cutting women' heads off, I don't think they are worthy of any respect or any considerations of their feelings when describing them.

volver

Well to everybody, with the exception of Baggs.

I'm sorry I didn't cover every nuance of this argument in every post I've made. It would have made for a very long thread.

No comment on my reply to the post you pulled me up on?
OK, I get it's hard to defend the indefensible.

OK, long post warning…

Nobody will become a rapist or sex abuser because of self ID but it will facilitate easier access to potential victims when they're in a vulnerable position ie hospital wards, refuges, changing rooms or other areas where there could be a reasonable expectation of a single sex space.

A poster brought the discussion of a rapist into the thread. This rapist raped 2 women, and has now decided that they are transgender, that we should refer to them as “she” and that they need to be housed in a women’s prison. The rape is terrible, it must have been awful for the victims and it was probably made worse by having to refer to their attacker as “she”. (Apologies if that sounds trite, but apparently I have to say it or everybody thinks I’m supporting the rapist )

The rapist was able to do all those terrible things without SelfID being in place. So clearly SelfID is not a prerequisite to all those terrible things happening. But there is a school of thought that says that SelfID will just make this more likely. That despicable people will misuse the opportunity to make this easier. But what this school of though conveniently ignores, is the fact that we already have laws in place that protect vulnerable people in hospitals, refuges or wherever, and that these laws are not being changed. That there are mixed wards in hospitals. That refuges can keep out anybody who they think is a risk to others, whatever sex they are.

I suspect at this point that someone will bring up the arguments “well a man in a dress could give you personal care even if you want a woman.” And today? How do we prevent that today? Well, more of that please.

There is a school of thought that says if “men pretending to be women” are allowed to call themselves women, then obviously women and women’s rights are at risk. People bring up terrible things that have happened to them or to people they know and say that this will make it more likely to happen in the future. Well its already happening, it doesn’t need Self ID.

Ask for examples of how this has played out in other countries who already have Self ID and see no change in crime stats, and you get told its just not reported on or measured. Or Scotland is “different”.

Point out that all the political parties in Scotland supported the bill and you get told they are all “captured” and that they were forced into it. Slight diversion into “captured”: The suggestion is that anybody who supports this has been brainwashed by the trans lobby. That would include Cole Hamilton, Anas Sarwar, many others. If that many people can be brainwashed to believe something so heinous, we should be using the techniques on the Russians.

So perhaps there are things in the bill that need to be changed, as I said above I don’t know. But demonising one political party, describing people who support this as “destroyers of women’s rights”, trying to pretend that elected members of the Scottish Parliament support violent death of other women....it just desperate.

My understanding, and I accept I may be wrong, is that this particular bill if it becomes law may well affect people in England and Wales.

If passed, anyone with a GRC obtained in Scotland would have to be accepted by law that they are the sex they are now identifying as in England and Wales, despite not having adhered too the current requirements.

I suppose in a sense I would agree, no men of any type in womens spaces. We should never have colluded in the pretence that you can change sex, Self ID is a direct consequence of that pretence.
I would never call a Male rapist she under any circumstances, I would not want to add to the further distress of the victims.

And how does that work for people from Denmark?

How does it work that you can get married in Scotland at 16 but soon won't be able to in England?

How did it work that homosexuality was illegal for young men in Scotland for much longer than it was in England?

Scotland and E&W have different laws. Somehow we've managed to get on with it for 300 years but now its an issue?

That was for Smileless2012

Something that you are overlooking Volver is that the ability to self ID is going to attract many who do mean harm to women and girls, simply as it would make things so easy to do.
Once they have that certificate they’ll have the right to work or be anywhere with girls and women and nobody could say no to them.People travel around too, so it isn’t just affecting Scotland, which is the reason Westminster is challenging it.
Then there’s also the issue of allowing 16 year olds to do this,
I know they’ve already got a vote in politics (which Sturgeon wanted so they could get more votes in a referendum.)
16 is disgracefully young to decide to change your gender and have your sex changed on your birth certificate.
Actually Volver I think your posts are becoming increasingly desperate, I don’t know what you really think of the matter, but it seems to me that you putany old decision made by the Scottish parliament ahead of concerns for women.

It's wrong in any circumstances for a male accused of rape to be referred to as she and/or to insist that they're addressed by their first name if it's a name only associated with women.

Yes now it's an issue volver.

the ability to self ID is going to attract many who do mean harm to women and girls.

Supposition. Has that happened in other countries where Self ID is allowed?

I don't care if you think my posts are becoming desperate. How dare you accuse me of putting my support for the Scottish Parliament ahead of concerns for women. People apparently think that a Parliament with a large proportion of women members are pursuing this line of thought because they want to take women's rights away.

I'll use a word I rarely use on here.

Paranoid.

Smileless2012

It's wrong in any circumstances for a male accused of rape to be referred to as she and/or to insist that they're addressed by their first name if it's a name only associated with women.

We're getting quite .... extreme now, aren't we?

What if they're called Marian? Or Sue?

But they are taking women's rights away and what does there being a large proportion of women members have to with it, any more than the leader of the SNP being a women?

Not all women appear to be concerned with women's rights do they.

If a man accused of rape has taken the first name Marian of Sue, then they should be referred too by their surname. extreme not at all, especially for the victim confronting her alleged attacker in court who has to refer to him as she or her.

or Sue

Women in many countries are discussing their concerns on this issue. I think it was Belgium where some women were attacked recently whilst trying to demonstrate on this issue.

Not all is right Smileless2012 some women as well as men who are MP’s are so far into the wokery forest that they can’t see the wood for the trees.

Smileless2012

If a man accused of rape has taken the first name Marian of Sue, then they should be referred too by their surname. extreme not at all, especially for the victim confronting her alleged attacker in court who has to refer to him as she or her.

John Wayne's real name was Marian.

I have posted on another thread my thoughts on SID.

Are we as a nation unconsciously aiding and abetting these men, going along with if you wear a dress and lippy you become a women?

It is medically impossible to change your chromosomes and your base physiology, whatever you call yourself or wear you will need the appropriate medical checkups throughout your life for your birth status. They will always have to have their birth status on their medical record for their own safety and good health when using the NHS

I really do not care how people dress or what they call themselves however, I do not want men however they dress in female only spaces.