Woman found guilty of raping two women. Remanded in custody for sentence end February

The geni is out the bottle isn’t it

Sorry. I sound like a right doom monger!

I think that in years to come, folk will be horrified by what social media had wrought upon us.
We are only seeing the tip of the iceberg.

HousePlantQueen

FannyCornforth

I think that we urgently need to look into why there is such a sudden proliferation of children who are so deeply unhappy with their bodies and their issues prompted by ideas of gender.

Are they unhappy? Or have they been told they are/should be?

There does seem to have been a noticeable increase in the number of children reporting mental health problems. It’s been growing since lock down. The adult population is reporting more anxiety/depression that in the past.

It’s positive that some of the stigma around m.h has diminished, making it easier to talk about. I do wonder about the influence of tik tok, reality tv shows and similar, on children and vulnerable people. I’m told There’s a you tube vid about self harming Mickey Mouse, in which Micky self harms then hangs himself. The person who told me this is a nurse, whose 6 year old boy showed her the site after she let him play on his tablet after school.
I realise this is off piste but we know there have been teenage suicides linked to these sites. My trans grandson spends a lot of time talking on trans websites

One does wonder what is at play HPQ

It’s got a smaller general population as well JaneJudge.

And if they are unhappy, why? And will making changes to their bodies make them any happier?

FannyCornforth

I think that we urgently need to look into why there is such a sudden proliferation of children who are so deeply unhappy with their bodies and their issues prompted by ideas of gender.

Are they unhappy? Or have they been told they are/should be?

I think the only reason this case is being focussed on is because Scottish parliament passed self id despite warnings that this might happen and a week later it has. Scotland has fewer women in prison than the rest of the UK.

Paddyann discussion about men in womens prisons have been taking place for years and years, the case of Karen White caused great concern that must have been about 5 years ago, oh and there was another violent man whose name escapes me, prison officers and those who manage prisons were highlighting their concerns but they were ignored. There is a unit for trans prisoners which I think partly cameabout in the wake of the Karen White incident.

We all express opinions about things we haven't personally experienced VS but that doesn't make those opinions invalid. It isn't possible for anyone to experience everything is it.

VS
That's OK if that's what you want. If you want a discussion with no place for different views or concerns.
But VS, we all post our different views and concerns, so what is it you want exactly?

if they are old enough to make decisions about their bodies, they are old enough to engage in the debate - they can't be both innocent babes and simultaneously mature enough to make changes to their bodies that could have lifelong implications. Brilliantly expressed Doodledog.

That's OK if that's what you want. If you want a discussion with no place for different views or concerns.

But I have to tell you how insular it is when you put your opinions about things you haven't experienced above the needs of those who actually have experienced them and disregard everyone who has been sincerely helped.

Anyway

I am starting to feel my presence simply encourages more of what concerns me and there is at least something that can be done about that

There are currently 15 ....thats FIFTEEN transgender people in Scottish jails .I had to go looking for that as I didn't know ,because this case has been the first that hit the front pages.
There are also 230 Transgender people in jails in England and Wales ...now I haven't heard of any of those ?
Can any of you who live in England and Wales educate me about where these people are housed when in prison?
Maybe our police and prison services could take advice as it doesn't appear these have caused such an uproar on here or in the media.

You've expressed my feelings exactly Galaxy in your post @ 12.22 and yes Fanny, there does need to be some serious research as to why there's such a large increase of children not happy with the bodies they were born with, especially as constraints due to gender have certainly lessened and rightly so.

That's not to say that there still isn't room for improvement.

I think that the vast majority of people think that their views are 'in the middle', so it's a bit confrontational when someone points it out - it centres them and by doing so pushes others into the margins. What is 'the middle'? Is there a continuum, with people who want to exterminate transpeople at one end, and those who would have them rule the earth at the other? Hardly.

Wherever we sit, we no doubt see our views as reasonable - we wouldn't hold them if we didn't. I see my own views as in the centre, but the fact that you see yours as sitting there suggests that you see mine as being somewhere on the edges, VS. I am supportive of the rights of transpeople to live as they choose, but also supportive of the rights of women to live without the male gaze and without risk of attack. I also support the right of religious groups to have their views respected, whether or not I share (or even approve of) those views. That seems to me to be tolerant and reasonable, although clearly, there are those who disagree, as evidenced by the many offensive comments I have received on here. It is also the case that my views, reasonable though I think they are, are kept to myself offline, other than within friendship groups I know to be supportive (either of the views themselves or of my right to express them). It is just too dangerous to speak out in a professional context, which I think speaks for itself about what I see as the unreasonable end of the 'debate'.

I understand that a lot of transgender people are children. What I don't understand is why. How is it that there are so many children 'in the wrong body' now, when none (or possible very very few) claimed that this was the case 20 years ago? Is it not adults who are putting this idea into their heads? How can a child understand about 'the wrong body'? What is 'wrong' with the body they have? None of that makes sense, and nobody who tells me that my views are regressive can explain any of this.

That doesn't mean that I am 'denying' anyone, on a fundamental or any other level. I am asking questions. I'm told on here that they are leading questions, which makes no sense. All I want them to lead to is an answer, even if that answer is simply what the person I'm asking understands by the terms I am questioning.

The bit you highlight about the very debate being harmful to young people is confusing too. It is unlikely that children will read Gransnet (or Mumsnet for that matter). Where else are they going to hear the sort of debate that concerns you? I would suggest that if they are old enough to make decisions about their bodies, they are old enough to engage in the debate - they can't be both innocent babes and simultaneously mature enough to make changes to their bodies that could have lifelong implications.

I keep fighting for trans people to be treated as individuals who aren't responsible for anyone's behaviour but their own.

Like nobody else wants that?

But who are these people who don’t treat trans as individuals? Who are these people who, whilst condemning Adam/Isla declare that all TW are like that?
Who are these people who identify all trans people they meet as a rapists?

BUT

If you mean we should not take care of females, by preventing opportunities for those TW, authentic selves, or fake (or whatever appellation you choose to give them) who mean harm then that is not sensible and the people who have caused that need are the harmful TW and TRA, not the general public, or even posters on GN.

Most airline passengers aren't terrorists, but everyone accepts that airlines take precautions because of those who are.

Most males cause no problem to anyone but everyone accepts that at least some precautions are necessary because of those who do.

(You don’t have to answer.)

It has been like a military campaign yes it has Fanny.

Great post @ 11.15 Doodledog and as you say likening this particular issue to homophobia and/or racism is unpleasant.

I think that we urgently need to look into why there is such a sudden proliferation of children who are so deeply unhappy with their bodies and their issues prompted by ideas of gender.

If it's any help I don't think the behaviour of activists has any impact on my view of trans people. Many of the people in those protests are misogynistic men and women. My views on sex segregated spaces arent due to the behaviour of activists they are simply that men have no place in womens spaces.

puberty blockers are not harmful that should read.

If you see things that are against talk guidelines then you need to report them. Otherwise I am really sorry but unless they break guidelines people are free to express themselves, talking is how we make sense of the world, and in the discussion of complex issues people are going to hear things that they may not agree with. Its happens to me all the time.
If we are talking about children then some of the most damaging things said have been puberty blockers are harmful, no problems at Mermaids, etc.

OK this is going to be long but it will be respectful so I would appreciate it being read objectively.

Let's put aside animosity, I'm aware I'm confrontational sometimes but I keep explaining why this matters to me and I understand it matters to all of you.

Whether or not you agree with the comparisons I draw to other demographics, what matters is that it's a cause for concern I am trying to show you.

Whether or not you agree that trans people or women and children are getting caught in the crossfire and bullied while this debate happens, what matters is that it is a cause for concern I am trying to show you.

Given the average lifespan of a person, a very large percentage of transpeople are children.

Whether or not you agree that those children should be supported or their feelings entertained or they should recieve treatment, they are out there and they are suffering with how they feel about their bodies and who they are.

It's not contradictory to say that women need rights and protections too and I have never asked for women to set aside a single right or protection for trans people which is why I agree with many issues.

However I think as many tell me they do, that trans people should be included in society and their rights respected and protected too.

Organisations need to take responsibility for how they interpret trans peoples rights and protections and respectful discourse will be paramount here when they need to listen to women and trans people.

One way everyone could take responsibility for that is to reflect on how these issues are discussed. By taking the trouble to not alienate or other those you discuss, welcomes them to hear your concerns while you consider theirs.

Sometimes these debates and how opinions are expressed are harmful to transpeople and to women and children too. I've tried to show you all both evidence of this as well as find ways to highlight it that you can empathise with and understand as feminists.

A person as an individual, as an adult or a child does not need to be denied on a fundamentally personal level in order for these issues to be discussed.

So I ask once again, as the person in these discussions who is generally somewhere in the middle wanting to bring resolution and two demographics of people together:

can people reflect on how these issues are discussed and be mindful of any harm they may potentially cause to trans people, a large percentage of whom are our children and young people?

Because throughout these discussions I have genuinely listened and my stance and understading has changed greatly and it would hold value to me should others understand mine and why I care about it and why I keep fighting for trans people to be treated as individuals who aren't responsible for anyone's behaviour but their own.

It’s all part and parcel of their ammunition isn’t it.
They’ve got all sides covered.
It has been like a military campaign.
I was trying to explain to MrC (womansplaining?) how it’s all come about.
To the person on the Clapham Omnibus, the trans stuff has happened all of a sudden and at such a huge scale too