Sandi Toksvig met the Archbishop of Canterbury

I stopped going to my local church and started attending another five or six years ago. The newish vicar here is anti-gay and not fond of women priests and bishops either. He has made one or two uncomfortable remarks recently, including calling the Bishop of Oxford a heretic for supporting gay marriage in church. The latest thing is that he is doing the PR for a group of conservative evangelical African priests. My mind boggles. And yes, women priests can still be treated badly. I know a few.

Galaxy

You arent going to stop some people believing being gay is a sin, you arent going to stop people believing abortion is a sin, you arent going to stop some people believing sex before marriage is a sin, no matter how many slogans you chant. I may disagree with all the above beliefs but I am not naive enough to think you can stop other believing them.

Absolutely.

Luckygirl3

He's trying to appease the world members of CofE who live in backward countries.

backward countries?

Disestablishment doesn't mean the C of E becoming non-existent or other Anglican churches going their own way.

Disestablishmentarianism would mean separating church from state in England.

It would carry on as the Anglican Church does in other countries eg Wales, Australia and over 40 other countries with the Archbishop of Canterbury as spiritual leader.

The CofE is steadily losing adherence in the UK and the next step would be to disestablish it and remove the bishops from the House of Lords. Governments pay little attention to its strictures about poverty, etc. Does it really matter if African churches go their own way? After all, the C of E has gone it's own way from Catholicism since Henry VIII. Churches could be repurposed as community centres for multiple uses.

Callistemon21

The Church of England is the name for the Anglican Church in England only and he is speaking for the Church of England. The many churches in the Anglican Communion are autonomous.

The C of E might be the 'Mother Church' of Anglican churches worldwide but the Church in Wales, for example, will bless the marriage or civil partnership of same-sex couples.

As the law stands, same-sex marriages may not be solemnised by the Church in Wales. However, following approval at the Governing Body of the Church in Wales in September 2021, a Liturgy for the Blessing of a Same-sex Civil Marriage or Civil Partnership has been authorised by the bishops for use in each of the dioceses from 1 October 2021.

So the Church in Wales cannot consider same-sex marriages to be a sin if they bless them, surely?

Blessings will be allowed in the C of E, but there won't be a vote on marriage.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-64313367

Grandma70s

Callistemon21

JaneJudge

I think Jesus would disagree with Welby and I'm not at all religious.

Jesus was a Jew.

I think Judaism holds a similar view to the C of E but someone else may know more than I do on this subject.

Yes, but Jesus was a reformer who challenged tradition.

He challenged those he thought did wrong but he was a traditional Jew.

Luckygirl3

He's trying to appease the world members of CofE who live in backward countries.

You beat me to it Lucky.

The Church of England is the name for the Anglican Church in England only and he is speaking for the Church of England. The many churches in the Anglican Communion are autonomous.

The C of E might be the 'Mother Church' of Anglican churches worldwide but the Church in Wales, for example, will bless the marriage or civil partnership of same-sex couples.

As the law stands, same-sex marriages may not be solemnised by the Church in Wales. However, following approval at the Governing Body of the Church in Wales in September 2021, a Liturgy for the Blessing of a Same-sex Civil Marriage or Civil Partnership has been authorised by the bishops for use in each of the dioceses from 1 October 2021.

So the Church in Wales cannot consider same-sex marriages to be a sin if they bless them, surely?

He's trying to appease the world members of CofE who live in backward countries.

Callistemon21

JaneJudge

I think Jesus would disagree with Welby and I'm not at all religious.

Jesus was a Jew.

I think Judaism holds a similar view to the C of E but someone else may know more than I do on this subject.

Yes, but Jesus was a reformer who challenged tradition.

JaneJudge

I think Jesus would disagree with Welby and I'm not at all religious.

Jesus was a Jew.

I think Judaism holds a similar view to the C of E but someone else may know more than I do on this subject.

I'm disappointed in Welby as I'd thought he was an innovator but I suppose an established church is just that.

Not same-day - same-sex

For some reason autocorrect doesn't like sex either 😲

VioletSky

Yes I agree, it's very possible to ensure organisations do not discriminate

To tell a whole demographic they are sinners for something is simple as who they love is discriminatory

Should churches be allowed to operate outside the law?

I don't think they are operating outside the law by saying they regard something is sinful when it is lawful.

It is the C of E's current position that marriage is between a man and a woman; they support celibate same-day relationships.

For the Archbishop to tell Sandy Toksvig that yes, the Church may change its mind on this soon would be wrong because he's not an autocratic leader. It would be up to the General Synod to discuss and outline the way forward.

Keeping discussion open is a good thing.

If you think about it these deity world religions have only been around for a very short period of time in man’s existence.

There is absolutely no reason why they should all but disappear, much like other religions have done so , and something else take their place.

Oh yes that could be a consequence of their beliefs.

Galaxy

You arent going to stop some people believing being gay is a sin, you arent going to stop people believing abortion is a sin, you arent going to stop some people believing sex before marriage is a sin, no matter how many slogans you chant. I may disagree with all the above beliefs but I am not naive enough to think you can stop other believing them.

But if the institution to which so many of these believers belong accept that everyone is born with a particular proclivity and there is sod all that they can do about it, then undoubtedly many will be dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century.

If these institutions reject what the vast majority of people accept as part of the human condition, then imo they are doomed to failure and anonymity. There is a reason why their congregation if falling year on year.

Not at all surprised. There are still strong pockets of resistance regarding women priests...

You arent going to stop some people believing being gay is a sin, you arent going to stop people believing abortion is a sin, you arent going to stop some people believing sex before marriage is a sin, no matter how many slogans you chant. I may disagree with all the above beliefs but I am not naive enough to think you can stop other believing them.

Thanks for the link, my I-pad doesn’t do links.

twitter.com/sanditoksvig/status/1618676742113349637?t=YphtDkGQy9H8g8dwAp3eiA&s=19

I was listening to this earlier. The C of E is what it is and members accept this particular discrimination when they join. If the A of C doesn't want to split the church, then there is no way forward at this time but well done Sandi Toksvig for opening up the conversation.

The Cof E will not recognise or marry gay people because to do so would mean it would split. There are large and significant churches in Africa which are at present classed as Anglican which still regard homosexuality as a sin and an offence against God. No A of Canterbury wants to be the one under whose watch the church fractured. It almost did so over the appointment of women as ministers. I don't think this is to do with discrimination or equal opportunities. Nor is it really to do with the church in the UK.

JaneJudge

I think Jesus would disagree with Welby and I'm not at all religious.

Same here on both counts, JJ

I think Jesus would disagree with Welby and I'm not at all religious.