As well as starving the NHS, Education has been starved by this government too.

ronib
What I find really sad is that people who say they are teachers don’t seem to grasp the point.
Could you explain what you mean?

I have a UK perspective, and don't see wanting a fair and equitable education system as being far-left. Not at all.

"struggling with some disability due to some haphazard political dogma which has attained religious proportions."
Sorry ronib but what on earth do you mean by that?

Mollygo

ronib
What I find really sad is that people who say they are teachers don’t seem to grasp the point.
Could you explain what you mean?

That fundamentally we have an educational system which is very unequal in State provision.

Mamie

"struggling with some disability due to some haphazard political dogma which has attained religious proportions."
Sorry ronib but what on earth do you mean by that?

What I mean by haphazard political dogma is the whole debate around alternatives to failing State provision.
If the State is failing your children, you are allowed to seek other solutions, even if you have to starve to pay for them.

ronib

Mamie

"struggling with some disability due to some haphazard political dogma which has attained religious proportions."
Sorry ronib but what on earth do you mean by that?

What I mean by haphazard political dogma is the whole debate around alternatives to failing State provision.
If the State is failing your children, you are allowed to seek other solutions, even if you have to starve to pay for them.

It is the bit about children with disabilities that I am questioning.

Mamie dyslexia of course

ronib

Mamie dyslexia of course

Well there are other learning difficulties and disabilities you know.... I don't think random political dogma was part of my world view as a Senco, more about ways to best support the children.

Well were dyslexic children supported 40 years ago?

Instead of focussing and spending money on academically able children - is this making a private school or a grammar school point?

Not particularly, Mollygo. It was partly in response to the idea that the state should somehow fund children to go to a private school. It's something I see as fraught with difficulty because you just know that it will be middle class parents who take advantage of it.

I worked in a secondary comprehensive school in an area of high deprivation from 2000 to 2013. We were never what I'd call 'generously' funded, but, thanks to Labour funding levels we had several TAs (a new concept in secondaries then), and mentors. There was also regular input from outside agencies.

Once the tories started their swingeing cuts to public services post 2010 this support slowly died away; cuts made to the numbers of TAs and mentors, outside agency support cut, access to CAHMS became more difficult. Yes, we had the pupil premium, after 2010 but the pupil criteria for it meant that it didn't really cover the costs for all the needy children. And the SEN allocation was never really sufficient.

I'm not saying take from one sort of school to give to another, all schools should be adequately funded, but a significant number of children, who tend to be in the schools that m/c parents avoid, need so much more support to fulfil any potential that they might have.

Wasn't the original Labour concept of Academies based on giving more funding to struggling schools?

ronib

Well were dyslexic children supported 40 years ago?

Yes absolutely. We had specialist peripatetic teachers in, support from educational psychologists, liaison with the dyslexia association, specialist training courses and increasingly (my own specialism) support with a range of IT equipment including laptops.

ronib

Well were dyslexic children supported 40 years ago?

Not usually. I recall parental battles in to even get it recognised as a problem.

(I have my own views on 'dyslexia', not mainstream, as usual...but I worked with many children labelled as such who weren't at all)

Mamie! Laptops barely existed 40 years ago!

Are you talking about France or the UK?

MaizieD

ronib

Well were dyslexic children supported 40 years ago?

Not usually. I recall parental battles in to even get it recognised as a problem.

(I have my own views on 'dyslexia', not mainstream, as usual...but I worked with many children labelled as such who weren't at all)

Oh yes, agreed.

I apologise I have misled you. There was no support 40 years ago for any dyslexic child at our local school. The head teacher did not think it existed.

I recall the teaching of basic literacy was shameful too.

MaizieD

ronib

Well were dyslexic children supported 40 years ago?

Not usually. I recall parental battles in to even get it recognised as a problem.

(I have my own views on 'dyslexia', not mainstream, as usual...but I worked with many children labelled as such who weren't at all)

So what were they, Maizie? And who labelled them as such?

ronib

Mollygo
ronib
What I find really sad is that people who say they are teachers don’t seem to grasp the point.
Could you explain what you mean?

That fundamentally we have an educational system which is very unequal in State provision.

And how exactly does that show teachers , or even who say they are teachers don’t grasp that?

MaizieD

Mamie! Laptops barely existed 40 years ago!

Are you talking about France or the UK?

I became an advisory teacher for IT and SEN in the late eighties. I worked supporting children and young people across the LA in mainstream and special schools. We had simple word processors by the early nineties and laptops later in the decade. We had specialist equipment for children who had never been able to speak and devices for accessibility for children with conditions such as cerebral palsy and muscular dystrophy.
The programs for dyslexia appeared pretty early on.
We had training regionally and nationally and worked closely with colleagues in other LAs.
It was one of the great privileges of my career to be part of it.

Sorry support for dyslexia even 30years ago was patchy and certainly not something all teachers acknowledged never mind supplied. I still have my son's report-aged 9 "X has ability but this is not evidenced in his written work" Doh!

Mollygo a few previous chats it appeared to me that people who implied that they were teachers could not or wouldn’t recognise that the State offers very unequal provision in access to education. The top ten State secondary schools outrank a number of private schools in examination results.

These schools often interview parents to ensure compliance to end goals and are highly selective. At the other end of the scale, children are under performing. So the idea is that the State reinforces social inequality itself and the chasm between public v state isn’t the only indication of social inequality.

Must have missed that. Must have been people who only said they were teachers.
People at the SmartBoard face who have worked in different schools know only too well that there are huge differences between state schools.

I would ask again ronib how you are judging attainment and progress. Not everyone will end up with 9s and A*s. The school may have enabled the pupils to make outstanding progress from a low baseline; that is why the the data matters.

Mamie

I would ask again ronib how you are judging attainment and progress. Not everyone will end up with 9s and A*s. The school may have enabled the pupils to make outstanding progress from a low baseline; that is why the the data matters.

I googled top ten State schools and Queen Elizabeth Barnet is first with Henrietta Barnet second. Both schools are highly selective with outstanding results.

Exactly ronib, so you are basing that on highly sought after schools with entrance exams.
You can't compare those schools with an intake based on geographical distance and a mixed ability intake.
Attainment is not the same as progress. Nor does a country need an entire population with double firsts at Oxbridge.

Mamie
I would ask again ronib how you are judging attainment and progress. Not everyone will end up with 9s and A*s. The school may have enabled the pupils to make outstanding progress from a low baseline; that is why the the data matters.

Well said Mamie. How much progress a child makes depends on their starting point. A child from a very low baseline who achieves 9A* has made far greater progress than a child who started from a higher baseline, but it won’t be reflected, except in data.
But even data doesn’t always give an accurate result if it only gives outcomes.
It also depends on the assessment.
e.g.
With early PIPS (Performance Indicators in Primary Schools) a child who scored highly on the initial test often appeared to have made little progress at the end of the year. This was because originally, PIPS didn’t measure writing progress at all, or maths beyond what a reception child might be expected to do.
The data therefore showed less progress by the brighter children than by the poorer starters.