Zelensky visits Britain

You might be surprised to know, ronib that Italy used to 'belong' to Austria. Large parts of the Netherlands 'belonged' to Spain'. Part of Canada 'belonged' to France, ass did parts of the USA.

For hundreds of years large areas of land changed hands through the marriage alliances of their 'owners'. i.e their hereditary rulers. This is not something that we would tolerate now in the 21st Century and no one country has any historic claim to 'ownership' of another country.

Your speculation has absolutely no validity; neither does any Russian claim to 'ownership' of Ukraine.

Callistemon21

^These days it is possible to go and settle in another place^

So are you happy for Putin to pop over here with an army and take over the UK?

I think popping over with an army is not Putin’s style. More likely to go nuclear.

When I visited Nice, I was surprised to learn that it had once belonged to Italy. My understanding is that geographical areas have changed ownership many times over the years. In fact there’s an atlas showing this. How many more young men are you willing to have die?
I believe that there needs to be more flexibility in finding a peaceful solution.
I have not fallen for propaganda but have you?
The young men of Ukraine and Russia are not the possession of two crazed leaders; the young are allowed a life.

According to one RAF Air Marshall on the Royal Aeronautical Society’s site, it would be possible to get pilots air ready in a shorter time scale from simulator to cockpit by cutting a few elements out of their training, but to get and keep the likes of an F15 in the air takes a ground crew of 25 per aircraft and there are no corners to be cut on maintenance, either training or delivery. I think this is one of the major misgivings that the Americans have. Where do the ground crews come from?

MayBee70

We should never have let them get away with poisoning people on our soil. And we should never have allowed ourselves to depend on them for energy. Or buy up half of London.

Or buy a seat in the House of Lords. Or donate to the Tory party

These days it is possible to go and settle in another place

So are you happy for Putin to pop over here with an army and take over the UK?

ronib

I don’t expect anyone to agree but some people are questioning why the war in Ukraine has been escalated to the level of a potential WW3? From one perspective, Ukrainian territory was previously Russian and it is a neighbourhood battle between Ukraine and Russia. The UK became entangled from the beginning when Boris Johnson met with Zelensky.

I don’t know if ownership of disputed territory is a good enough cause to justify the continued loss of many young lives over the coming years. It shows no sign of resolution.

The history of the world has always been one of changing geographical ownership. These days it is possible to go and settle in another place.

I just thought to air this as a possible alternative point of view … even if very fluffy cloud thinking.

You're falling for Russian propaganda ronib.

Russia and the Soviet Union do not mean the same thing.

Ukraine is a country which has fought for its freedom several times over the centuries and such countries are unfortunate to have a border with a country which wishes still to invade and dominate.

MayBee70

So you think everyone in Ukraine should just move somewhere else?

Lots of people have left Ukraine but most hope to return. They seem be fiercely proud of their country and heritage and most do not see themselves as Russian.

Ukraine was divided between various countries at various times pre WW2 after which the Russians ‘liberated’ it and refused to leave, incorporating it into the Soviet Union, along with many other countries that did not want to be part of Russia. When the wall fell in Berlin in 1989 it wasn’t long before all these countries demanded their independence from Russia. Mikhail Gorbachev oversaw the collapse of the Soviet Union and the beginning of the new Russian Federation. It is thought that Putin would like to re establish the Soviet Union.

So you think everyone in Ukraine should just move somewhere else?

I don’t expect anyone to agree but some people are questioning why the war in Ukraine has been escalated to the level of a potential WW3? From one perspective, Ukrainian territory was previously Russian and it is a neighbourhood battle between Ukraine and Russia. The UK became entangled from the beginning when Boris Johnson met with Zelensky.

I don’t know if ownership of disputed territory is a good enough cause to justify the continued loss of many young lives over the coming years. It shows no sign of resolution.

The history of the world has always been one of changing geographical ownership. These days it is possible to go and settle in another place.

I just thought to air this as a possible alternative point of view … even if very fluffy cloud thinking.

There's a good article by Simon Jenkins in the Guardian today (no paywall) saying that realistically it would take a long time to get fighter jets to be of any use, and that they would represent an escalation. There are, apparently, other ways of helping with equipment and training that would be more effective and less risky.

Sorry, I have never mastered links

Whitewavemark2

Ukrainians have been in the U.K. training on jets for a while now apparently.

We trained Ukrainians even before the war.

👍

MayBee70

We should never have let them get away with poisoning people on our soil. And we should never have allowed ourselves to depend on them for energy. Or buy up half of London.

Yes I do agree, appeasement never works.

Ukrainians have been in the U.K. training on jets for a while now apparently.

We trained Ukrainians even before the war.

We should never have let them get away with poisoning people on our soil. And we should never have allowed ourselves to depend on them for energy. Or buy up half of London.

And there is Georgia which was invaded. I remember a BBC foreign correspondent reporting last year, that the local famers see their borders move to their detriment since the invasion of their country and if they complain they are threatened with guns.

maddyone

I think it’s important to win in Ukraine because if not the possibility is that Putin will move on to NATO countries next, and then it will be NATO boots on the ground, and we all know where that could lead.

Totally ageee Maddyone Russia winning in Ukraine is not something I wish to contemplate.

MayBee70

It’s going to take ages to train people to use the tanks so the jets will surely take even longer?

Ukrainian soldiers have been training to use other makes of tanks since President Putin invaded.

A pilot who is trained to fly an airforce combat plane is already highly skilled, they are highly intelligent and quick to learn. They will learn how to handle the different aircraft PDQ.

It’s not about the ability of the forces to adapt, it’s the willingness of Countries to supply weaponry and combat vehicles.

I think it’s important to win in Ukraine because if not the possibility is that Putin will move on to NATO countries next, and then it will be NATO boots on the ground, and we all know where that could lead.

It’s going to take ages to train people to use the tanks so the jets will surely take even longer?

I'm afraid I can't get over Johnson's close links with Russia over the years; Russian interference in the Brexit referendum campaign, Johnson's suppression of the Russia Report, his ennobling of the son of a KGB agent, the enormous Russian donations to the tory party and the extraordinary tardiness with which sanctions were imposed on Russian oligarchs with assets in the UK, slow enough to give them time to move out ass much as possible

He's been playing his usual dirty double game

Totally agree. I keep saying this, he needs to be investigated.

But, back to Zelensky and the fighter jets; I believe the issue is the complexity of the equipment is an issue, this is not just like handing someone the keys to a fleet of transit vans to help them out.

Whitewavemark2

We will be sending fighter jets.

👍

Rather this than NATO boots on the ground

We will be sending fighter jets.

I thought it was rather wonderful when Zalensky was giving awards to his army yesterday how they towered above him in height and all clearly adored him, they positively glowed. Very touching, he is such an inspiration..