WW 3 ..is this the reality?

maddyone

Normandygirl
You say you don’t blame anyone for this conflict, having claimed that Putin acted illegally, but the illegal act is justified! An illegal occupation is justified apparently. That’s exactly what both Putin and Hitler said.

I have never said it was justified, but it was a clear as daylight that if provoked enough by the west that Putin would act.
The sensible thing to do in that situation is to stop the provocation. The US/West did the opposite and then we act outraged that Putin did exactly what he said he would.

Normandygirl

I am a bit baffled by your post. Are you making statements of what has been said or assertions of what happened.

Putin has absolutely no right to demand the resignation of Zelensky. Zelensky is the democratically elected leader of Ukraine, a sovereign state. Since Zelensky is Jewish, how can he be a party to any 'nazification' of the country. Putin keeps saying this but has yet to provide any evidence of it.

As you say You cannot enter into any peace talks with the idea that one side will not abide by it. - and that of course is the problem. No one believes that Putin would stick to any peaceplan that restores Ukraine to its natural borders. he is onky interested in peace plans that give him everything he wants.

"Do you believe that Putin would keep his side of the deal?
What was the deal?
Subjugating part of Ukraine?"

Do you think Zelensky/US will ?
There was no ceding of Ukraines territory on the table.
Putin agreed to withdraw his demand for denazification, which in effect meant the removal of Zelensky.
Zelensky agreed to renounce Ukraine's NATO application thereby keeping Ukraine a NATO free buffer zone between east and west, as they had promised in the Minsk agreement.
You cannot enter into any peace talks with the idea that one side will not abide by it.
The GFA would never have happened with that attitude.

The UK provoked Russia to invade? I think I’ve just fallen down a rabbit hole.

Callistemon21

I think we are being fed Russian propaganda on here.

Indeed Callistemon.

Normandygirl
You say you don’t blame anyone for this conflict, having claimed that Putin acted illegally, but the illegal act is justified! An illegal occupation is justified apparently. That’s exactly what both Putin and Hitler said.

Some posters need to remove their blinkers. Putin will not agree to anything less than he keeps a large part of Ukraine. The Ukrainians don’t want to give away a part of their country. I don’t blame them. Stop trying to blame ‘the west’ Boris Johnson’ America’ and Uncle Tom Cobleigh and all. The problem here is Putin. He will not negotiate to withdraw his army because he claims the Ukraine is part of Russia.

M0nica

*Normandygirl*What was the provocation from Ukraine that led Russia to invade?

Ukraine is an independent state. Anything it does in its own borders, is nobody's business but theirs. They are entirely free to join NATO, the EU and any international organisation they choose. The fact that Russia would rather they didn't, is no reason for it to choose to invade the country.

Provocation is never a reason for invading another country that is not threatening (troops massed on borders, you know the kind of thing - what Russia was doing before it invaded).

Peace negotiations can only be based on Russia taking all its troops out of Ukraine and allowing them to regain their original peaceful autonomy with all the land within their international boundaries under the Ukraine government's governance.

As for the idea that the western leaders would push Zelensky to keep on a war that could lead to the world being destroyed by nuclear weapons is laughable.

Of course it would be the perfect solution to the climate crisis. Is that what you had in mind?

Minsk agreement clearly stated that Ukraine would remain a neutral " buffer zone". That was not adhered to, but I don't blame Ukraine at all. The blame clearly lies with the USA who have been working towards control of Ukraine for decades, for obvious reasons. The leaked audio between S of S Victoria Nuland and US Ambassador Geoffrey Pryatt is quite revealing in just how involved the US has been in Ukrainian domestic politics since 2014.
I have said that Putin's invasion was illegal but the US/UK is not blameless in provoking it in the first place.
As for world leaders not provoking nuclear war, don't be so naive. They are already doing just that and not just with Russia either .

Greyduster

^Elegran*s post is not excellent because it it contains not one word about how the conflict between Russia and Ukraine might be solved^. There is only one way that this conflict is going to be solved and that is by his own people getting rid of Putin, and if no-one inside the Kremlin is willing to take on that task, then no amount of running about on here shouting “the sky is falling” and turning inside out with anxiety is going to change a thing. Elegtan is right, if the s***t hits the fan we will be much more able to cope with the implications if we are a strong and stable and focussed nation rather than one that simply stands about wringing it’s hands at the prospect of war coming our way. Where would that have got us as a country eighty years ago? We didn’t have any real idea of how to deal with a power crazed dictator then, but what we didn’t do was panic!! The nation came together and did what it had to do! And before anyone chooses to point out to me that another war will probably not be a conventional one, does anyone really think that there is no-one in the Kremlin that will think, before Putin pushes the button, “Hang on a minute! How the hell have we allowed ourselves to get to this point?” I’m sorry but I don’t believe it.

No one is panicking. We are simply supplying arms to a beleaguered nation. It doesn’t matter whether or not we are a strong and stable and focused nation, what matters is that we continue to supply the arms to Ukraine that Ukraine needs. We are indeed extremely focused on doing exactly that. Absolutely no one is wringing their hands because what we as a nation are doing is supplying the arms that Ukraine needs.
Eighty years ago we had a weak leader who said he had secured peace in our time when of course he hadn’t secured peace at all. With a change of leader things changed and people realised that the only way to secure peace was to wage war sadly. I’m not entirely sure what you don’t believe Greyduster, but what I and many others believe is that appeasement doesn’t work, it didn’t in the thirties and it won’t work now. In order to secure peace now we need to ensure that Ukraine has the weapons it needs to defend itself against a power crazy dictator now.

NormandygirlWhat was the provocation from Ukraine that led Russia to invade?

Ukraine is an independent state. Anything it does in its own borders, is nobody's business but theirs. They are entirely free to join NATO, the EU and any international organisation they choose. The fact that Russia would rather they didn't, is no reason for it to choose to invade the country.

Provocation is never a reason for invading another country that is not threatening (troops massed on borders, you know the kind of thing - what Russia was doing before it invaded).

Peace negotiations can only be based on Russia taking all its troops out of Ukraine and allowing them to regain their original peaceful autonomy with all the land within their international boundaries under the Ukraine government's governance.

As for the idea that the western leaders would push Zelensky to keep on a war that could lead to the world being destroyed by nuclear weapons is laughable.

Of course it would be the perfect solution to the climate crisis. Is that what you had in mind?

I think we are being fed Russian propaganda on here.

Normadygirl
I dont know wether any of this is true or not, but it was far too late because the invasion was already in progress.
Way before the invasion the EU and NATO was encouraging Ukraine not to be “neutral”.
Expecting Putin to negotiate now is unrealistic he has occupied the area that he said he would and will try to maintain that.

Former Israeli prime minister rebuts claim, boosted by Russia, that the US blocked a Ukraine peace agreement: 'It's unsure there was any deal to be made'
www.businessinsider.com/israel-bennett-walks-back-claim-west-blocked-ukraine-russia-peace-deal-2023-2?r=US&IR=T

Ukrainians are not naive’: Zelenskiy voices doubt on Russian military withdrawals
This article is more than 10 months old
President says positive signs from talks ‘do not drown out the explosions of Russian shells’ after first day of face-to-face negotiations in Istanbul
www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/29/ukraine-russia-peace-talks-istanbul-war-kyiv

Normandygirl where are you finding your information, please?

Normandygirl

The former prime minister of Israel, Naftali Bennett negotiated a cease fire in the early days of the invasion with Putin dropping his demand of denazification and demilitarisation and Zelensky denouncing his application to join Nato. There was real will on both sides to end the conflict. Then the western leaders of USA, UK, France and Germany decided that they wanted to " keep striking Putin" and told Zelensky not to agree and blocked the talks.
The second attempt at a peace deal happened a few weeks later with Russia and Ukraine meeting in Istanbul where they came very close to a deal. Enter Boris Johnson who according to his own office, urged Zelensky not to negotiate and claimed to be speaking on behalf of all weatern leaders.. Reported by Ukraineska Pravda media, Boris told Zelensky " Even if you are ready to sign a deal with Russia, We are not"
Turkey, the hosts for these peace talks said they were sure that these peace deals were going to end the conflict and were then surprised by a number of NATO countries openly stating that they wanted the war to continue with the aim to "weaken Russia"
Of course peace is possible but only if the west allow it.

Do you believe that Putin would keep his side of the deal?
What was the deal?
Subjugating part of Ukraine?

DaisyAnne

Normandygirl

I cannot believe how many couch commandos there are advocating for more death and destruction in Ukraine.
There are only 3 possible outcomes now, the war will go on for years with millions more losing their lives or it will end with the death of all of us. The third option is for all western leaders to put political pride to one side, sit down and talk and bring about a peaceful solution that both sides can live with.

Just out of interest Normandygirl, when did you become a Putin supporter? I presume you don't think we should have democracy either.

I don't support either side in this conflict because there are no "goodies and baddies" here. Putin acted illegally in his invasion but there was also huge provocation . The geopolitics of this area is very complex and deep, it's not the simple story that some on here pretend it is.
My support is with the millions of ordinary citizens of Ukraine and Russia ,who yet again ,become the victims whose homes are destroyed, who have the lives of their loved ones brutally ended and have their children's limbs blown off by mines. Creating millions more refugees, that no doubt, will not be welcome in the west, when the virtue signalling has been forgotten.
What kind of a world are we living in when it becomes controversial to advocate for peace?

The former prime minister of Israel, Naftali Bennett negotiated a cease fire in the early days of the invasion with Putin dropping his demand of denazification and demilitarisation and Zelensky denouncing his application to join Nato. There was real will on both sides to end the conflict. Then the western leaders of USA, UK, France and Germany decided that they wanted to " keep striking Putin" and told Zelensky not to agree and blocked the talks.
The second attempt at a peace deal happened a few weeks later with Russia and Ukraine meeting in Istanbul where they came very close to a deal. Enter Boris Johnson who according to his own office, urged Zelensky not to negotiate and claimed to be speaking on behalf of all weatern leaders.. Reported by Ukraineska Pravda media, Boris told Zelensky " Even if you are ready to sign a deal with Russia, We are not"
Turkey, the hosts for these peace talks said they were sure that these peace deals were going to end the conflict and were then surprised by a number of NATO countries openly stating that they wanted the war to continue with the aim to "weaken Russia"
Of course peace is possible but only if the west allow it.

So how would you solve it, Maddyone? Or any other poster who thinks we should send in a gunboat or two.

By going in with all guns blazing, so that Putin then has every excuse to "defend his country" against the "Western conspiracy" to attack it?

By pleading with him to be merciful and spare our little island, so that he can say "Sure, just add yourselves to the countries under my wing, and allow me to be a part of your government and your law-making processes, and to collect taxes from your citizens, and conscript them into my army and . . . etecetera" all of which would be the equivalent of invading and defeating us, without the cost and effort of actually declaring war.

Did you read the paragraph where I said "You win by influencing more people than your enemy does to believe that you are in the right, by persuading them to resist in subtler ways, by resisting yourself all the subtle ways that you are being undermined and infiltrated."

That translates as taking active steps to influence world opinion of his tactics, including opinions inside his borders. You seduce (politically! - or perhaps not just politically, Mata Hari had her successes) his lieutenants and make it more attractive to be pro-West than anti-West. You seduce his citizens with international artifacts, fashions, music, culture, so that they are dissatisfied with the version of life they currently have. You show them the freedom of choosing between differing political parties, instead of elections with only one candidate. You use subtlety.

In short, you exercise diplomacy which is not just sitting around a table discussing things straight out, face to face. You also counter all the "diplomacy" that his envoys and ambassadors are deploying in their turn. Remember the "golden showers" incident that Trump was involved in? That was Putin's kind of "diplomacy".

Elegran*s post is not excellent because it it contains not one word about how the conflict between Russia and Ukraine might be solved. There is only one way that this conflict is going to be solved and that is by his own people getting rid of Putin, and if no-one inside the Kremlin is willing to take on that task, then no amount of running about on here shouting “the sky is falling” and turning inside out with anxiety is going to change a thing. Elegtan is right, if the s***t hits the fan we will be much more able to cope with the implications if we are a strong and stable and focussed nation rather than one that simply stands about wringing it’s hands at the prospect of war coming our way. Where would that have got us as a country eighty years ago? We didn’t have any real idea of how to deal with a power crazed dictator then, but what we didn’t do was panic!! The nation came together and did what it had to do! And before anyone chooses to point out to me that another war will probably not be a conventional one, does anyone really think that there is no-one in the Kremlin that will think, before Putin pushes the button, “Hang on a minute! How the hell have we allowed ourselves to get to this point?” I’m sorry but I don’t believe it.

That was indeed Hitler Whitewave and it is also Putin. As you are fully aware.

maddyone

Elegran’s post is not excellent because it contains not one word about how the conflict between Russia and Ukraine might be solved. That’s what is being discussed, not idealistic ideas that have nothing whatsoever to do with solving the horrendous problem of a power crazy dictator, who would no more sit down and negotiate than he would fly to the moon, invading a sovereign state and claiming it should be part of his country.

That was Hitler

Elegran’s post is not excellent because it contains not one word about how the conflict between Russia and Ukraine might be solved. That’s what is being discussed, not idealistic ideas that have nothing whatsoever to do with solving the horrendous problem of a power crazy dictator, who would no more sit down and negotiate than he would fly to the moon, invading a sovereign state and claiming it should be part of his country.

Callistemon21

^Not my ACs, nor my GCs, or nephews, or friends, all of whom are of course as British as yours^

🤔 Never assume anything.

I can tell you that not all of mine are British and some live in countries that could be next on Putin's list.

Ditto

Not my ACs, nor my GCs, or nephews, or friends, all of whom are of course as British as yours

🤔 Never assume anything.

I can tell you that not all of mine are British and some live in countries that could be next on Putin's list.

Callistemon21

Fleurpepper

If nuclear weapons are added to the mix- it does not bear thinking about.

Best not think about it if it is affecting you to that extent.

Whatever you think or do personally won't change things.

Agreed, Callistomen.

I see no point in wasting time and mental energy in worrying about something we are powerless to prevent.

Yes, but the reality of this awful reality is causing 10s of 1000s to suffer from anxiety, not clinical anxiety, but real anxiety

Of course they are. The wives and children of those men fighting for freedom in Ukraine are anxious. Anyone with relatives there is anxious.

I feel for them.