How did we lose our freedom of speech? Is it irreversible?

Hetty58

ronib, students should develop critical thinking skills, investigate sources, question funding and motives - at least. Of course, governments seek to control their own populations - but how can anyone believe they'd all be working together?

China certainly controls every aspect of life, if you don’t conform you are sent to a re-education centre for as long as it takes. Of course there are incentives work hard, follow the party line brings its rewards. China has one of the highest income differentials in the world, but if you step outside the state policy you fall very quickly.

That’s an extreme example, in the west so called critical thinking is bad, because if you are for example a teacher you are given a syllabus to teach and rules that are established by others above you. Some of us are lucky enough to be self employed and get to make the rules, which is great if you are successful, if not you go back to others rules.

Hetty58

I've heard it all a hundred times, that all consuming conviction that, somehow, every government in the world are out to control our minds (and probably implant microchips too) destroy our freedom and turn us into zombies. Stop, think - ask why would they want to do that? How could they possibly do that? Then consider whether you have fallen victim to the mass paranoia scam - born in the USA of course. (Oh dear, we've obviously failed dramatically as educators.)

Exactly.
Regarding Neil Ferguson, he was predicting, from thoroughly rigorous analysis, the level of harm from Covid 19, IF NO ACTION was taken. As action WAS taken (vaccines, lockdowns, masks etc.), there was not this level of harm. It doesn't mean his prediction was faulty; rather what COULD have happened without intervention. (This is my understanding of it, from doing my 'own research').

ronib, students should develop critical thinking skills, investigate sources, question funding and motives - at least. Of course, governments seek to control their own populations - but how can anyone believe they'd all be working together?

I do think we're controlled by governments. But I think we can read around media sources (check overseas medias) and work out an idea of approximately where the truth might be.

I almost never believe the British media. They play a huge part in the brain washing of the British public. They control elections, controlled what we saw about the pandemic and tell us who to love and who to hate. You've only got to read all the cr*p pumped out about H&M to see that. But I think there is a huge section of the population that like that and want to be guided/controlled.

Hetty58

I've heard it all a hundred times, that all consuming conviction that, somehow, every government in the world are out to control our minds (and probably implant microchips too) destroy our freedom and turn us into zombies. Stop, think - ask why would they want to do that? How could they possibly do that? Then consider whether you have fallen victim to the mass paranoia scam - born in the USA of course. (Oh dear, we've obviously failed dramatically as educators.)

Are students investigating the role of the supranational these days?

Hetty58

I've heard it all a hundred times, that all consuming conviction that, somehow, every government in the world are out to control our minds (and probably implant microchips too) destroy our freedom and turn us into zombies. Stop, think - ask why would they want to do that? How could they possibly do that? Then consider whether you have fallen victim to the mass paranoia scam - born in the USA of course. (Oh dear, we've obviously failed dramatically as educators.)

Controlling the population is exactly what governments (and religions) do, and nobody does it better than China, although Iran controls the people well enough from their perspective.
A democracy like the UK gives most of us the opportunity to live well if we conform to societies “norms” and take advantage of those opportunities. Those of us that can’t for whatever reason, are supported at a fairly basic level by the benefits system.

We can question whatever we want, those in government get to decide policy largely on what is going to win the most votes at the next election. There is no long term plan it’s up to us an individuals to decide our own path.

Veridica

Riverwalk

Please do me a favour by meeting me half way and looking up: YouTube Dr John Campbell

Campbell, who by the way is a nurse not a medical doctor, has been discussed on here for the past three years - he's not new to us.

Call me old fashioned but I prefer lessons on pandemics from the world's epidemiologists not 'Dr John'.

Nothing wrong with being old fashioned. You'll frequently catch me listening to singer songwriters from the '60s! The great thing was that they were inquisitive, passionate and happy to challenge what was going on. Some of it was nonsense but it felt we were moving forward. I feel we now live in a world where people aren't too bothered about being manipulated.

As far as John Campbell is concerned I get the idea that a narrative has been decided elsewhere on this forum that his work should be dismissed, which is really disappointing. I didn't agree with him initially but I appreciated his professionalism and attention to detail. Then things changed. His dogged pursuit of data led him to discover that the media, public bodies and drug companies are not telling the truth. All his videos are based on publicly available data, otherwise he would be taken down.

His qualifications and experience are enormous and he has written some highly respected books on physiology that are used widely in the medical profession. Anyone who denigrates his qualifications compared to doctors who gained their title through medical school could be accused of looking for an excuse to put him down because they don't want to face up to what he is saying. Harold Shipman was a "real" doctor, wasn't he?

Dr John Campbell got me through the pandemic with his advice. Right from the start of January 2020 I listened to his blog every day. We started taking VitD etc. In no way was he, at that time, anti vaccine, anti mask or anti lockdown. In fact he advised people to wear masks. However, last year he suddenly became an anti vacc’er and I stopped listening to him. His blogs are now full of conspiracy theories and at least one of the people he used to chat to ( the lady doctor from Australia) has distanced herself from him. I now prefer to listen to people like Tim Spector and the MedCram podcasts, neither of which advise people to not have the vaccine. It saddens me to say this as I was very grateful for his advice throughout most of the pandemic, but I think he’s completely lost the plot these days and is quite dangerous. I think his celebrity status has gone to his head.

When I read about the protesting Canadian truckers being locked out of their bank accounts, albeit temporarily, I was shocked that could happen in a democratic country.

Not an anti vaxxer I've had 4 now and my husband 5, when he was having his last one, I could help thinking really! really! aren't we being over vaccinated here. I think people's concerns should be discussed and listened to. For example, one of my sons was telling me a doctor in the States was shut down when he discussed the raised risk of myocarditis in a demographic of young men. My son refused to have a booster when these concerns were raised having lost his half brother to cardiomyopathy and possibly as a result has a heightened awareness of heart related conditions.

Veridica

DaisyAnne

Interesting first ever post on GN, Veridica. It seems to be intended to undermine all that governments every decide to do. Do you not like democracy?

Democracy is about freedom of speech. The present government has been caught out on so many lies that it's impossible to trust them. When there is a subject (let's take Covid and the vaccines as the most current and contentious) where the truth can be derived from the government's own and publicly available figures, you would expect national media to turn the numbers into facts. The facts can then determine policies to make the country a better place. BUT they are either ignoring them or trying to explain them away.

When qualified people offer a different version, they are stamped on. I urge everyone to check out Prof. Norman Fenton's analysis of the Covid and vaccine data. He is based at Queen Mary University, London and very highly regarded as a statistician. Down the road at Imperial, Neil Ferguson who has made countless errors in the past and was responsible for the horrendously inaccurate and terrifying forecasts of the effects of Covid, is still suffering no comeback for his incompetence. His conclusions suited governments across the world to see how far they could control their populations by lockdowns and mandates-and it worked! Many people have woken up to the fact that their democracy is slipping away but unless more question what is going on, it will happen again, and get worse!

Freedom of speech, while an underlying principle of democracy, is not unlimited.

I wonder if you are American. It seems many are misled these days into thinking our laws are the same as those in the USA. They are not (thankfully).

I am not, by the way, interested in those who use social media to disseminate lies and propaganda, so let's not "take Covid and the vaccines". However, general discussion and the ability to question your own beliefs are always okay.

I've heard it all a hundred times, that all consuming conviction that, somehow, every government in the world are out to control our minds (and probably implant microchips too) destroy our freedom and turn us into zombies. Stop, think - ask why would they want to do that? How could they possibly do that? Then consider whether you have fallen victim to the mass paranoia scam - born in the USA of course. (Oh dear, we've obviously failed dramatically as educators.)

Riverwalk maybe have a look at the role the World Health Organisation plays in public health policy and practices? You raise an interesting point.

His conclusions suited governments across the world to see how far they could control their populations by lockdowns and mandates-and it worked!

Given the diversity of political systems of the nations that locked down (most nations of the world) that would mean there was some sort of 'hive mind' and a global conspiracy.

Veridica, C minus - find out what research actually is, develop study skills, check your 'facts' and try again. Your ramble reminds me of some efforts I had to read and mark when I was teaching.

DaisyAnne

Interesting first ever post on GN, Veridica. It seems to be intended to undermine all that governments every decide to do. Do you not like democracy?

Democracy is about freedom of speech. The present government has been caught out on so many lies that it's impossible to trust them. When there is a subject (let's take Covid and the vaccines as the most current and contentious) where the truth can be derived from the government's own and publicly available figures, you would expect national media to turn the numbers into facts. The facts can then determine policies to make the country a better place. BUT they are either ignoring them or trying to explain them away.

When qualified people offer a different version, they are stamped on. I urge everyone to check out Prof. Norman Fenton's analysis of the Covid and vaccine data. He is based at Queen Mary University, London and very highly regarded as a statistician. Down the road at Imperial, Neil Ferguson who has made countless errors in the past and was responsible for the horrendously inaccurate and terrifying forecasts of the effects of Covid, is still suffering no comeback for his incompetence. His conclusions suited governments across the world to see how far they could control their populations by lockdowns and mandates-and it worked! Many people have woken up to the fact that their democracy is slipping away but unless more question what is going on, it will happen again, and get worse!

The scientific community has definitely researched the benefits or not of Ivermectin. A quick chat with a stranger in a restaurant, who had been successfully treated with Ivermectin for Covid, made more of an impression as to its efficacy. Basically it worked but unavailable in UK and bought from Spain.

One of the reasons I so frequently give links is so that other people can see where I get my information and can judge it themselves.

welbeck

Trump was not right about ivermectin as a treatment for covid; isn't it for horse-worming ?

Ivermectin is used for many animals as well as humans for various parasitic diseases, however Covid is a most unlikely to be cured.

mobile.twitter.com/Azeem_Majeed/status/1439992522441433092

Trump was not right about ivermectin as a treatment for covid; isn't it for horse-worming ?

You’re confusing ‘cancelled’ with ‘discredited for being wrong’.

Botanist David Bellamy was cancelled for not believing in man made Climate Change. Mike Yeadon was cancelled for being against the Convid jabs. Endless people get disappeared from being able to freely communicate with the world because of their views. Many, many of them experts in their field. Freedom to hear the Truth? It's disappearing fast.

Veridica I will exercise my freedom of speech by disagreeing with everything you have said. Can't resist pointing out that most doctors aren't "real" doctors because they haven't got a PhD. For most of them Doctor is a courtesy title. My daughter has got a PhD and has been involved in research for nearly 30 years. I tend to get my information from her and from a doctor who spent 2020 on a Covid ward and assures us that Covid was like nothing she had seen in her previous long career and was certainly nothing like normal flu.

Jane71

I'm not sure I fully understand where the OP is coming from, However, I don't believe we have lost our freedom of speech, but I do believe that we should be more sceptical (not cynical) of what we read in the media.

Sceptical and cynical, because there are so many activists who have a blatant agenda and are publishing biased information. Which leads to politicians changing policy for purely political gain, because it seems popular.

varian

Unfortunately the phrase "do your own research" no longer refers to stringent scientific investigation and analysis of peer reviewed papers, but it just means spending hours on the Internet going further and further down rabbit holes where the wldest conspiracy theories hold sway.

I think it's up to us to decide whether what we read makes sense or not but at least if you make the effort you are bound to get a wider appreciation of the subject. Some people have a track record of being completely honkers and I can't imagine spending any time on what David Icke for example has to say!

However, remember Donald Trump? Yes, the mention of his name makes me cringe as well but he was right about Ivermectin and Hunter Biden and if he had disbanded NATO we may have had more chance of a peaceful solution in the Ukraine, so perhaps not to be too dismissive.

Riverwalk

^Please do me a favour by meeting me half way and looking up: YouTube Dr John Campbell^

Campbell, who by the way is a nurse not a medical doctor, has been discussed on here for the past three years - he's not new to us.

Call me old fashioned but I prefer lessons on pandemics from the world's epidemiologists not 'Dr John'.

Nothing wrong with being old fashioned. You'll frequently catch me listening to singer songwriters from the '60s! The great thing was that they were inquisitive, passionate and happy to challenge what was going on. Some of it was nonsense but it felt we were moving forward. I feel we now live in a world where people aren't too bothered about being manipulated.

As far as John Campbell is concerned I get the idea that a narrative has been decided elsewhere on this forum that his work should be dismissed, which is really disappointing. I didn't agree with him initially but I appreciated his professionalism and attention to detail. Then things changed. His dogged pursuit of data led him to discover that the media, public bodies and drug companies are not telling the truth. All his videos are based on publicly available data, otherwise he would be taken down.

His qualifications and experience are enormous and he has written some highly respected books on physiology that are used widely in the medical profession. Anyone who denigrates his qualifications compared to doctors who gained their title through medical school could be accused of looking for an excuse to put him down because they don't want to face up to what he is saying. Harold Shipman was a "real" doctor, wasn't he?