How did we lose our freedom of speech? Is it irreversible?

No not a coward Varian, just sensible.

There are thing s I believe in, opinions which I hold strongly, which I chose not to express in certain company..

I know that being outspoken and telling what I believe to be the truth would result in the almost certain end of certain social relationships.

Am I a coward?

Intelligence has nothing to do with the ability to make logical or sensible decisions because personal prejudices, emotional reactions, not to mention political or financial gain all influence decisions

Johnson IS intelligent he backed Brexit as his best chance as PM, plenty of intelligent friends I know voted purely for emotional reasons, no logic whatsoever ever.

Choughdancer you are absolutely right.

The distribution of intelligence in the population is well-described by a bell-shaped curve (most people being in the middle) but the ability of the population to analyse political and other discourse surely depends on learning how to do it. I think far more attention needs to be given, especially in state schools, to analysing text, written and spoken, for logical and illogical thinking and how to apply this to newspapers and the media generally. Imho not every child will be able to master that skill but it would help if they made some progress in that direction so they were not gulled by pundits, conspiracy theorists, politicians and self-appointed experts.

choughdancer

I don't think being reluctant or cautious to say things is the same as not having freedom of speech. We are free to say anything we like, but may hold back for all sorts of reasons; it doesn't mean we are not free to say it!

Exactly.

I don't think being reluctant or cautious to say things is the same as not having freedom of speech. We are free to say anything we like, but may hold back for all sorts of reasons; it doesn't mean we are not free to say it!

Yes, I have experienced the same when I was a union rep. What I am finding now though, is that people are more cautious to voice their opinion, even in more private circumstances than they once were. Maybe it's because there is so much more messaging now from all directions about what is acceptable, I don't remember that from "back in the day", but then we didn't have social media.
Maybe it's just my circle of friends

The fact that more people have to wait for a signal from a "braver" person to feel comfortable in airing their own views is perhaps a sign that speech is not as free as it once was ?

No, there have always been a lot of people, who will not do or say something, unless someone else has done it/said it first.

I noticed this when I was about 8 or 9, when I offered a contrary view and nearly half the class then agreed with me, they had just been too scared to disagree with the teacher.

It was the same when with a couple of others we tried to establish a trades union in our place of work. lots of people supported us, until the Research Centre's Director called a mass meeting and asked us directly about wanting union representation. Nearly all those behind the motion melted away, afraid it might mean they lost their job, why I do not know, no redundancies were planned. Three of us stood up and were counted and known. 100% of the staff of our department, including our manager. It did us no harm at all and my colleague ended her career on the Board of Directors.

It is the pattern of my life. I give a contrary view, expecting to be howled down - and that does happen, but more often, I find other peoples support my view - and so it has always been.

I suppose there have always been times in history when certain topics were "controlled narratives" that you couldn't speak out against or publicly disagree with. During the war it was probably an unwritten rule not to voice any anti war opinions.
The problem now is that governments are passing laws
[ aided by the technology to surveil] that certain opinions on an ever increasing list of subjects are not to be tolerated and that is a slippery slope.

M0nica

I would think I have a fairly good record of speaking up without regard to what others think.

I have noticed on occasion that once I say the (so far) unsayable. people feel free to agree with me and speak more openly.

The fact that more people have to wait for a signal from a "braver" person to feel comfortable in airing their own views is perhaps a sign that speech is not as free as it once was ?

Riverwalk

GagaJo

Normandygirl, yes, I do feel less able, on GN at least. Not in my daily life because most people I know share my opinion on the topic of trans. I'm not afraid to make my opinion known, but the arguments on here about it are repetitive and I can't see the point of rehashing ad infinitum.

So I guess we do lack FoS on here, sort of.

But surely Gaga your side of the argument on the topic of trans would also be repetitive - you have your take, others have theirs?

We all have the freedom of speech on here - just because someone takes a consistently opposing view doesn't mean they're trying to stifle yours.

Totally agree Riverwalk. I don't want to keep saying the same thing. I bore myself!

GagaJo

Normandygirl, yes, I do feel less able, on GN at least. Not in my daily life because most people I know share my opinion on the topic of trans. I'm not afraid to make my opinion known, but the arguments on here about it are repetitive and I can't see the point of rehashing ad infinitum.

So I guess we do lack FoS on here, sort of.

But surely Gaga your side of the argument on the topic of trans would also be repetitive - you have your take, others have theirs?

We all have the freedom of speech on here - just because someone takes a consistently opposing view doesn't mean they're trying to stifle yours.

M0nica

I would think I have a fairly good record of speaking up without regard to what others think.

I have noticed on occasion that once I say the (so far) unsayable. people feel free to agree with me and speak more openly.

True MOnica!

No I don’t feel unable to say what I really feel on many subjects, even in the face of vehement opposition. Though re trans, GagaJo is right whether you share her POV or not.
Like GJ, whether we agree or not, my experience in that subject is that most people I know share my opinion. However, on GN, the repetitive arguments from those who don’t, are rehashed ad infinitum, even by those who feel that doing so is pointless.

I would think I have a fairly good record of speaking up without regard to what others think.

I have noticed on occasion that once I say the (so far) unsayable. people feel free to agree with me and speak more openly.

Normandygirl, yes, I do feel less able, on GN at least. Not in my daily life because most people I know share my opinion on the topic of trans. I'm not afraid to make my opinion known, but the arguments on here about it are repetitive and I can't see the point of rehashing ad infinitum.

So I guess we do lack FoS on here, sort of.

Do any posters feel that they are less able to say what they really feel on subjects such as Covid, vaccines, transgender, Ukraine or climate change, when it doesn't agree with the accepted narrative?
If the answer is yes, that does suggest that FoS is being eroded.

The OP's evidence for loss of freedom of speech is 'secrets' revealed by investigative journalists. Can't she see the contradiction in this?

DaisyAnne

GagaJo

I do think we're controlled by governments. But I think we can read around media sources (check overseas medias) and work out an idea of approximately where the truth might be.

I almost never believe the British media. They play a huge part in the brain washing of the British public. They control elections, controlled what we saw about the pandemic and tell us who to love and who to hate. You've only got to read all the cr*p pumped out about H&M to see that. But I think there is a huge section of the population that like that and want to be guided/controlled.

So you would prefer anarchy to democracy.

Weird.

This is your post DaisyAnne.

Here are your words (check the quote above to see them). So you would prefer anarchy to democracy.

Where is the lie?

So I say again, I fail to see how avoiding the UK gutter press and reading widely is a support of anarchy.

MawtheMerrier

Hear, hear 👏👏And verbosity is no indication of intellectual superiority!

Linking it back to freedom of speech, some of the most gullible are those who think politicians who attended Eton and Oxbridge have superior ability and are don't feel free to argue with them. Remember the PM whose Brexit lies set the BBC narrative. The BBC admitted later to selecting audience members who would reinforce this on Question Time. What the Brexiters labelled as Project Fear has been shown to be Project Truth. On social media the (also later proven) tampering by Cambridge Analytica reinforced the message, again taking people's freedom away. The tricks they learned have been applied ever since.

There has been some evidence of the truth getting through in recent weeks and actually penetrating the mainstream. Pulitzer investigative journalist Seymour Hersh revealed the US plot to blow up the Nordstream pipeline last week and the New York Times is now running with the story about the Wuhan leak, which supports Senator Burr's investigation a month or so ago which arrived at the same conclusion.

After the Kennedy assassination, the CIA and others began using the term "Conspiracy Theory" to discredit any challenges and it has continued over the past couple of years among those who can't make the effort to examine issues that don't appear to make sense.

Yes I agree online schooling and lockdown was as bad if not worse than mask wearing but my point was that once lockdown was finished and face to face schooling back it was harmful to expect teenagers to wear masks 8 hours a day and still be able to benefit as it impacted learning negatively.

The whole package caused poor mental health together but why mask wearing in schools at that point, completely pointless. On their individual time with me they were told they didn’t have to. Nearly all took they mask off as fast as possible, only one student kept theirs on out of choice and obviously they were allowed to.

Then you are a liar GagaJo and I am fed up with people who suggest you said things in post which never happened. I said nothing that in anyway relates to your disgusting language.

Your post yesterday at 20.58pm.

GagaJo

I fail to see how avoiding the UK gutter press and reading widely is a support of anarchy Daisyanne. But if you prefer to believe Rupert Murdoch's sh*te, feel free.

There are other sources that are less biased, or that at least have a different bias.

With the power of the internet these days there is no need to be in the sway of idiots that churn out pre-written scripts for red-tops.

What is this in reply to GagaJo?