So letting in a bit of reality - does this mean it is the beginning of the end of Brexit

So who exactly is "ordinary"?

A concept that always puzzles me, growstuff

I expect that even Johnson might think he's 'ordinary'

MaizieD

Brexit has often felt as though it was, in part, a class war.

Here we have a perfect example. A denial of, even a contempt for, people's negative experiences of Brexit because, somehow, they're not really authentic, 'ordinary' people. So they don't count at all, they just deserve what they got for getting above themselves...

Maybe somebody could explain what "ordinary" people are.

I've always considered myself quite "ordinary" and I suspect the people I know who have been affected consider themselves "ordinary" too.

So who exactly is "ordinary"?

2016 was a good year for Vladimir Putin who backed brexit and Trump.

There were only three foreign leaders who backed brexit - Trump, Putin and the French fascist Marine le Pen.

Very true, Dickens.

I shall never forget 2016 - the US (and the world) got isolationist/ Donald Trump, too.

Consequences of both are rumbling on - won't stop.

You seem extremely angry about brexit, which is odd considering it was 7 years ago. (Kandinsky)

Compared to the anger that has obsessed the ERG for the last 25 years, that's nothing!

And even now we've exited the EU, the group are still not happy.

They're not happy because they want a complete bonfire of EU regulations, whilst those that have the temerity to oppose them are suggesting that some - you know, things like workers' rights, food safety, etc, might be good to keep.

What you are not getting is that although the actual vote was 7 years ago - the process is very much ongoing, which is why it is in the news and why we are still discussing Brexit. So there's nothing odd about being angry when we're reminded on an almost daily basis about the mess it's created.

Further, if the Honourable Gentleman, Rees-Mogg, is right - this might rumble on for the next 40 odd years or so, as we discover what Brexit actually means in real life and whether there really are any benefits to the ordinary individual, because as yet, no-one seems to have provided one tangible advantage except the nebulous control that we've taken back but which doesn't seem to have improved anyone's life.

This government is all about Brexit and its opportunities for the UK - so it's going to remain a constant news item. I find it odd that you don't understand why it's still a hot potato.

SporeRB

My young daughter in her early thirties voted Remain, we rarely discuss politics and now she is a fan of Rishi Sunak!

She sent me a video link through Whatsapp - Rishi Sunak’s first speech and his pledges. The video was nearly an hour long so I wrote back to her and said ‘That is a long speech’ and she replied ’It needed to be long’.

When it comes to economy, the voters trust Rishi Sunak more to deliver the economy compared to Keir Stammer.

Well you are very lucky you are still talking. As I know many young people who can barely speak to their Brexiteer parents- because they really tried to explain why it would damage their future, gave evidence from experts- all dismissed by those parents.

Steve Baker and Sarah Vine are right on this point- it has massively divided families- especially on a generational basis.
I think Sarah Vine called it a 'Civil War'. Not with arms, but with relationships.

And it was not about 'just voting differently to you' it was about the massive personal damage in many cases, and the damage to the country as a whole, the NHS, small businesses, and job losses from large businesses that folded, and so so much more.

Bellyaching- such a hugely rude term.

So many people relied on the free and easy import and export- seeds, flowers, plants ... meat, fruit and veg, medicines, chemicals like those for purifying water, parts for industrial chains, the list goes on and on, and on some more. Those are not for the privileged! Everyday working people are very bothered by those things indeed.

Brexit has often felt as though it was, in part, a class war.

Here we have a perfect example. A denial of, even a contempt for, people's negative experiences of Brexit because, somehow, they're not really authentic, 'ordinary' people. So they don't count at all, they just deserve what they got for getting above themselves...

Kandinsky

*My DH worked for many years in IT systems design and consultancy servcs across Europe and the rest of the world*

This is my point.

That’s not your ‘average man in the street’ job is it.
Talk to bus drivers, shop workers, plumbers, carpenters, people in low skilled jobs.
I doubt they’ll be worried about getting plants & seeds from Europe.
They’ll be glad they’ve got more chance of a job now we’ve ended freedom of movement.

Professional gardeners and growers worry about getting seeds and plants from Europe - they work with their hands, you know.

Plus ...

*Somebody else I know finds it more difficult (sometimes impossible) to import seeds and plants

And that’s a reason for staying in the EU?
Jesus Christ.*

Yes, it's a very good reason, if you're a professional gardener.

As I wrote, choose something you know about.

PS. Yet another "normal" person, who worked hard to set up a profitable business, which is now being threatened.

Errr ... I'm not privileged Kadinsky, but I do read books in other European languages and they're more expensive.

My sister couldn't have moved to Spain before the UK joined the EU because she and her husband both have health problems and they couldn't have afforded the health insurance - as they can't now. if you're going to sound off about something, I suggest you choose a topic you know about.

As for my friend's business and the 60 UK staff she made redundant, I'm perfectly aware that people get made redundant all the time, but these were 60 redundancies which wouldn't have happened without Brexit.

We are all perfectly "normal" people with lives not that different from other "normal" people.

Casdon

Kandinsky

Fleurpepper

You seem extremely angry about brexit, which is odd considering it was 7 years ago.
I actually know quite a few people who voted remain, & whilst they were disappointed at the time, they barely mention it now & are just getting on with their lives.
It’s almost like you don’t want to let go of this, you appear to want to continually argue about it and let off steam.
I never thought the ending of a trading bloc arrangement could unleash such passion.

Kandinsky you must be aware that Brexit was on 31st January 2020, surely? You live in a rarefied bubble if you only know people who voted remain who barely mention Brexit - or maybe they have just realised it’s pointless discussing it with you.
Whatever, you need to wake up and smell the coffee because neither remainer Gransnetters or the general public who have now understood what a historic mistake Brexit was are ever going to let it drop. Be prepared to find yourself in a decreasing minority.

I think it's pointless attempting to counteract the argument that tells you the referendum was seven years ago therefore you should just forget about the result like you would a football game which your side lost.

By the same logic, perhaps it's time that critics also stopped dragging up Labour's record in office and blaming them for the position we're in now - that was even further in the past!

We all know the pandemic has had an effect on the economy and our way of life - and that's also becoming past history, too. However, Brexit has not so far delivered much, if anything, remotely like the predictions and 'promises' and I believe that many Brexiters recognise this, don't know how to 'excuse' it (apart from said pandemic) and would really rather you just shut up about it because they can't offer you anything tangible to recommend it! In fact, it's becoming quite obvious that the government have actually lost control of Brexit. Of course, we had problems with supply chains, road haulage, etc prior to leaving the EU so some of our problems are not directly caused by our exit... but none of them have been helped by it either. Because, as the illustrious Boris Johnson once pointed out - most of our problems are home grown. But - fortunately for the libertarian free-market thinkers - they were able to scapegoat the EU.

I used to find some of the EU directives and machinations irritating, and the reputations of some of the 'high-flyers' in that institution less than appealing. And on my only visit to Brussels I was appalled at the road congestion - too many 'company cars' on it. Parking in the city is (or was) cheap and so no one uses public transport. We were due to meet a business colleague for dinner but spent so much time in traffic that he gave up and went home.

But this pales into insignificance in the light of what this current government is doing to our country.. There's been a lot of talk and hype and catchy little sound bites about "global Britain - open for business", "levelling-up" and "building back better" but not much in the way of funding or action towards those goals. Really, how has the ordinary, average person benefited from leaving. Brexit is an enigma... I'm just waiting and hoping that eventually it will be demystified.

oreo perhaps you might like to comment on the wider issues that *Kadinsky has avided, like the loss and non replacement of £billionsof research grants, that enabled Britian to lead the field, in the past, in pharmaceutics, for example, the exit of pharmaceutic companies and their resaerch teams from the UK to EU countries and how that might affect not only ourselves but the halth of our children and grandchildren,

You might be able to shed light on how she thinks lots more jobs will go be able to go to qualified british craftsmen/women , when we already have a shortage of such craftsmenand have none to plug the gaps.

I have a seriously ill god daughter whose surgery is closing because of the lack of doctors www.itv.com/news/meridian/2022-12-19/lack-of-staff-forces-gp-surgery-to-close-leaving-9000-patients-without-a-doctor. A consultant has sent her for urgent hospital tests. Urgent tests that cannot be done in less than 6 months unless she can afford to go privately.

I presume that those who feel no difference, have bad diets and do not eat salad veg. Plenty of salad veg in the EU. I know, I have been there, buying and eating it.

The fact that you cannot see something immediately in your domestic life, does not mean that further down the line you and family members may not suffer for things not being done now of which you are unaware.

SporeRB

My young daughter in her early thirties voted Remain, we rarely discuss politics and now she is a fan of Rishi Sunak!

She sent me a video link through Whatsapp - Rishi Sunak’s first speech and his pledges. The video was nearly an hour long so I wrote back to her and said ‘That is a long speech’ and she replied ’It needed to be long’.

When it comes to economy, the voters trust Rishi Sunak more to deliver the economy compared to Keir Stammer.

They don’t.
www.statista.com/statistics/710316/prime-minister-voting-intention-in-great-britain/

Kandinsky

*It meant my sister couldn't move to Spain, my son couldn't study in Germany*

Why not?
Has the UK banned people from leaving the country?
What did people do before we joined the EU ? ( as we knew it at time of referendum )
Honestly, you talk like there was no life before 1992

Another friend made 60 staff in the UK redundant and moved her business to Holland

People have always been made redundant. It’s nothing new. My husband was made redundant in 1989 & again in 1998.

Somebody else I know finds it more difficult (sometimes impossible) to import seeds and plants

And that’s a reason for staying in the EU?
Jesus Christ.

It's more difficult/expensive to buy books from the EU and it's more hassle to post anything to an EU country

Here’s an idea. Buy books in this country.

I couldn’t read anymore.
These reasons are nothing to do with the average person & all to do with privilege.

Yup!
Everyday working people aren’t at all bothered by those things. Am amazed at all the bellyaching that goes on about Brexit on some forums. Get on with life.

ExperiencedNotOld

So, how big is your bubble that you know so much about other people?

Well, it’s big enough for me to talk regularly with people with a wide range of views, and not to assume that what they say when I ask them specific questions on my hobby horses that they will tell me what I want to hear just for a quiet life. How about you?

My young daughter in her early thirties voted Remain, we rarely discuss politics and now she is a fan of Rishi Sunak!

She sent me a video link through Whatsapp - Rishi Sunak’s first speech and his pledges. The video was nearly an hour long so I wrote back to her and said ‘That is a long speech’ and she replied ’It needed to be long’.

When it comes to economy, the voters trust Rishi Sunak more to deliver the economy compared to Keir Stammer.

So, how big is your bubble that you know so much about other people?

Kandinsky

Fleurpepper

You seem extremely angry about brexit, which is odd considering it was 7 years ago.
I actually know quite a few people who voted remain, & whilst they were disappointed at the time, they barely mention it now & are just getting on with their lives.
It’s almost like you don’t want to let go of this, you appear to want to continually argue about it and let off steam.
I never thought the ending of a trading bloc arrangement could unleash such passion.

Kandinsky you must be aware that Brexit was on 31st January 2020, surely? You live in a rarefied bubble if you only know people who voted remain who barely mention Brexit - or maybe they have just realised it’s pointless discussing it with you.
Whatever, you need to wake up and smell the coffee because neither remainer Gransnetters or the general public who have now understood what a historic mistake Brexit was are ever going to let it drop. Be prepared to find yourself in a decreasing minority.

According to the Trussell Trust 2.17 million people used a food bank during 2021/22. This is not the number of people that actually benefited from them. Figures from the Trussell Trust.

There are roughly 33 million wage earners in the UK, 28 million households and less than 1 million using Food Banks.

That number is, far, far to many, there should be none, but it does not justify the statement
Most people, who are not retired, but still working.......... and many are using Food Banks

A very small proportion of the working population rely on food banks, albeit, far too many

Dinahmo

ENO No doubt you are now retired, probably don't have a mortgage and at least the state pension but possibly an employment pension or two.

Most people who are not retired but still working have seen their mortgage payments or their rents increase dramatically and many are using food banks. As i suspect are some retirees who only receive the state pension.

So far far wrong. I work full time, I have pensions to come after saving hard for many years, have a farmer husband and the rest is my business. I live in a real world but one where I’d like consideration of other people’s opinions.

Kadinsky You respond to the things other posters write opposing your views. I notice you avoid responding to any of the points I bring up. Is it that you agree with all I have said?

Fleurpepper

You seem extremely angry about brexit, which is odd considering it was 7 years ago.
I actually know quite a few people who voted remain, & whilst they were disappointed at the time, they barely mention it now & are just getting on with their lives.
It’s almost like you don’t want to let go of this, you appear to want to continually argue about it and let off steam.
I never thought the ending of a trading bloc arrangement could unleash such passion.

Compassion for those who feel shame and guilt

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5Mz8-W0zbM

Oh definitely, but only if ...

if they now still say they would vote the same again, then NO!