Junior Doctors strike

ronib

MaizieD Is it nasty and judgmental to hark back to say 30 years ago when somehow my family had a very efficient if stern gp who was so helpful to my young family?

Even younger people are commenting on how very difficult it is to access medical treatments now.

By trying to mute criticism, are we not in danger of making a bad situation much worse?

It's not the junior doctors fault that it's hard to access treatment though, is it? It's the governments chronic underfunding and under paying while siphoning off money to their friends and families. It's deliberate Tory policy to destroy the NHS.

lemsip

MaizieD

They do grow nasty and judgemental though
.........................................

you certainly have proved that statement!

Why?

I'm not the one (s) saying that the strikers on the picket lines seem 'childish' because they appear to be less serious than the posters think they should be?

How does their behaviour in any way indicate that they are not serious and professional when actually doing their rather important, and often life saving, job?

ronib

MaizieD Is it nasty and judgmental to hark back to say 30 years ago when somehow my family had a very efficient if stern gp who was so helpful to my young family?

Even younger people are commenting on how very difficult it is to access medical treatments now.

By trying to mute criticism, are we not in danger of making a bad situation much worse?

Criticise them if they're not doing their jib properly, not when they are off duty and fighting for decent wages and working conditions.

I really don't see what your 30 year old interaction with your GP has to do with this. They might have been the life and soul of the party when off duty. Would you have then labelled them 'childish' as though it was a disgraceful thing to do?

All medical and nursing staff are under a great deal of work and financial pressure, and I expect they feel very stressed at having to take strike action. It must be heartening for them to hear cars beeping their support as they pass by. It is natural in a highly charged situation such as this that strikers feel buoyed up by visible public support.

I would much rather they enjoy those feelings of camaraderie amongst colleagues, and support from the general public, than becoming angry and aggressive, as sometimes happens in such situations.

It used to be very easy to make an appointment here ,too. The difference now is the huge population increases just about everywhere. The number of available GPs just hasn't kept pace and here, to get into med school, you have to have a really, really high entry score ( perfect in fact). You can get in via a medical science degree but you still have to do extremely well. However, if you are from overseas and pay massive sums for the course you can get in more easily. Something's crook in Ballarook. Those overseas new doctors leave, of course, to go to their countries of origin so the training country gets little benefit.

I’m one of the 170,000 who’s appointment has been cancelled because of these strikes. It’s an urgent appointment, I have severe heart failure and am deteriorating.
No I do not support any health workers striking, they’re holding the ill and worried to ransom.
I’m a retired nurse so I do know what it’s like in the NHS before I get jumped on.
Time’s running out for me and many others and we deserve better.

BlueBalou I truly hope that you are able to get the treatment you need very soon 🌸🌸🌸

I do support the strikers and yes treatment of 2 kinds has been held up for me...but was before the strikes.

Long waiting lists are not new. they have been endemic for some considerable time and I believe that's part of the reason health workers have been striking.

Its for us all. We need to take care of our health workers, who care for us.

Its a two way deal as far as I'm concerned.

"However, if you are from overseas and pay massive sums for the course you can get in more easily. Something's crook in Ballarook. Those overseas new doctors leave, of course, to go to their countries of origin so the training country gets little benefit."
*nanna8" I don't know where or when you got this information but it is completely wrong. There was an article in the Sunday Times (2019) which alleged this but has been completely discredited by the Medical Schools Council. Funding for home and overseas is completely separate and overseas students are subjected to a cap of 7.5%, which has been in place for a number of years. British students also travel abroad for medical training in countries like Poland, Serbia, Bulgaria etc. I think you only have to look round the average UK hospital to see how much we depend on doctors and nurses who are not British and who have trained in their own country which is a rather different picture to the one you have painted.

It’s a two way deal as far as I’m concerned.

Of course it is. This is exactly right.

I think exuberance on the picket line is a way of blowing off steam having just worked long shifts in an understaffed and underfunded NHS. Of course 35% is not achievable but it makes the point their pay has been held back (along with most other public sector essential workers) coupled with the high rates of inflation and cost of living. It's appalling that the Tories have allowed a situation to develop in which there is an enormous backlog in the NHS now compounded by some cancelled 175,000 operations and treatments. They deserve a decent rise. Applause for their work during the pandemic is not enough.

Germanshepherdsmum

Financial sector employees aren’t paid by the taxpayer are they?

I agree they are not. Financial sector employees are paid from the profits of firms doing business with taxpayer clients, individual and corporate or government funded by the taxpayer. But does that not mean taxpayers contribute to their large salaries through the fees paid whether directly as individual taxpayers or indirectly through corporates providing goods and services to individuals? If Sunak and Hunt believe wage increases in the public sector drive up inflation why did the Tories not introduce wage restraint in the private sector? The argument that high salaries are needed to attract and retain talent in the City applies just as much to, say, medical staff in the NHS.

" If Sunak and Hunt believe wage increases in the public sector drive up inflation why did the Tories not introduce wage restraint in the private sector?"

A most pertinent question. Grantanow

And the answer is not, "because they can't". Its deeply embedded in some conservative philosophy, and a most unpleasant part too.

A caring - and practical - approach to inflations would have to look at overall realities and take hard decisions, and its not just that they don't want to go there:

but because of an outlook that sees "public servants" as secondary perhaps even inferior to business, whereas they are all intertwined.

Starmer has put well-being near the top of the agenda.

short quote from longer article:

“Not only do we believe there is such a thing as society, but we believe it is the glue that binds us together. As human beings we are given purpose by the work we do, nurtured by the family and relationships we care about the most, rooted in the places we live and the communities we belong to. We need a government that recognises and respects this, and we need a strong, just and equal society to sustain it.

keirstarmer.com/plans/a-just-society/

foxie48

"However, if you are from overseas and pay massive sums for the course you can get in more easily. Something's crook in Ballarook. Those overseas new doctors leave, of course, to go to their countries of origin so the training country gets little benefit."
*nanna8" I don't know where or when you got this information but it is completely wrong. There was an article in the Sunday Times (2019) which alleged this but has been completely discredited by the Medical Schools Council. Funding for home and overseas is completely separate and overseas students are subjected to a cap of 7.5%, which has been in place for a number of years. British students also travel abroad for medical training in countries like Poland, Serbia, Bulgaria etc. I think you only have to look round the average UK hospital to see how much we depend on doctors and nurses who are not British and who have trained in their own country which is a rather different picture to the one you have painted.

I think nanna8 is in Australia and referring to the Australian system.

If Sunak and Hunt believe wage increases in the public sector drive up inflation why did the Tories not introduce wage restraint in the private sector?

If they believe it.

It's an absurd thing to try to convince the public of because public sector wages don't have any influence on inflation. They are not in a 'charged for' sector' so how could their increased wages affect inflation, which is based on purchase prices?

OTOH, Improved public sector wages would help to drive growth when they are spent into the domestic economy. Cutting or stagnating public spending depresses growth; as we know from the affect of the 13 years of tory austerity that
we have already endured.

Raising public sector wages would also improve the tax take, if that's what they're bothered about.

Thanks GG13, I hadn't realised that.

A good point, MaisieD - public sector employees cannot pass increased wage costs onto the consumer. But there is an argument that large increase to public sector wages might fuel a wages/price spiral which the feed into the inflation measure. In practice though public sector wages have fallen so far behind inflation (and large increases are unlikely) that that mechanism fails to come into play.

Have a look at this chart, grantanow then tell me how raising public sector wages could possibly start a wages/prices spiral seeing as they lag behind private sector wages and public sector wages don't affect prices.

We heard a great deal about 'differentials' in the 1970s. Do you think that the private sector is suddenly going to demand that it maintains its differential with the public sector?

Ziplok, absolutely agree about athlete's pay. It's totally obscene in America. People will pay for season tickets when they won't pay to go to the dentist.

I have never begrudged good wages to doctors for so many reasons. There seems to be a tendency in the US (on the left) to criticize doctors who choose a well-paying field and pursue it and who can command a good salary.

I don't want someone who is poorly paid, badly overworked, with no possible future improvement replacing my knees or removing my appendix.

If doctors are bad, toss them out. If they are good, pay them well.

Fleurpepper

I can well imagine that those who use private health insurance won't mind junior doctors leaving the NHS in droves to go to the private sector, due to very stressful conditions and low pay. Many will go abroad too, for the same reasons.

They will mind if they need emergency care, intensive care or very specialist care for long term conditions, which are not available privately.

Indeed, Casdon

Private sector groups skim off the most profitable sectors

A and E, M Health, long term care for very chronic and complex conditions (especially for the very elderly with multiple problems like combinations of dementia and physical symptoms needing complex nursing long term care).....are not profitable.

If you have a very careful look at limitations on all but the most expensive private care you'll find clauses of limitation.

Casdon

Fleurpepper

I can well imagine that those who use private health insurance won't mind junior doctors leaving the NHS in droves to go to the private sector, due to very stressful conditions and low pay. Many will go abroad too, for the same reasons.

They will mind if they need emergency care, intensive care or very specialist care for long term conditions, which are not available privately.

I think sometimes people are driven to using private healthcare through desperation.
It is in fact far worse than we are being told.

If someone can afford to pay for an operation to improve their quality of life instead of waiting for up to 4 or 5 years for an operation, can you wonder why they do that?

It is not going to change the way the NHS works if they don't carry out private work because the Consultants' contracts specify the hours they have to work for the NHS and what they do in the rest of the time is their concern. Some of the private work they do is contracted by the NHS.

MaizieD

Have a look at this chart, grantanow then tell me how raising public sector wages could possibly start a wages/prices spiral seeing as they lag behind private sector wages and public sector wages don't affect prices.

We heard a great deal about 'differentials' in the 1970s. Do you think that the private sector is suddenly going to demand that it maintains its differential with the public sector?

That is precisely the point I made in the second part of my comments!

I have just been watching the BBC series on operations in the Leeds NHS. The complexity of the tasks, the depth of training needed, the intellectual ability required, the effort needed to ensure post-operative beds are available, the stamina needed to carry out operations lasting 10 hours or more and the compassion shown by surgeons leaves me full of admiration. Moaning about striking doctors seems trivial in comparison with the work they do.