Junior Doctors strike

Back in the 50s my sole practitioner GP frequently came out at night to give me an injection for a particularly severe asthma attack. Never complained, whatever the hour. He had previously been a missionary in Africa. There was nobody else to cover for him, just his wife to answer the phone if he was out. A lovely man who worked like that until shortly before retirement when he took a rather less lovely partner.

MaizieD

They do grow nasty and judgemental though
.........................................

you certainly have proved that statement!

Fleurpepper

Sorry, just to add, the NHS got 2 for the price of one- GPs had to have someone to take calls when on call, nights and week-ends- which meant that the 'other one' had to do a job they were not trained for, very demanding and stressful + lack of sleep, and for free!

So did the hospital consultant's wife when their DH went in voluntarily to do ward rounds every other Saturday and Sunday and through the night. Usually another irate consultant with a patient with an acute illness.No mobile phones in those days just a bleep.

@ Grammy Grammy . I think junior doctors deserve a decent wage rise . They train for 10 years or more at a great cost to themselves . They haven’t had a decent wage rise since 2008 just dribs and drabs and are well behind where their wages should be . They need to be paid their worth and then we might keep enough of our doctors to staff our GP surgeries and hospitals. Doctors do not have google as their first point of call as you suggest . I am a retired nurse and my daughter is a senior nurse and her wages aren’t a great deal better then when I retired over ten years ago because they have only been given a raise of 1% here and there .
During the junior doctors strike people’s live shouldn’t be more at risk because consultants are covering their shifts .
If this country can pay builders and lorry drivers £1000 a week don’t you think our NHS staff they’re worth .

‘The country’ doesn’t pay the builders and lorry drivers, unless engaged in work for the government.

Germanshepherdsmum

‘The country’ doesn’t pay the builders and lorry drivers, unless engaged in work for the government.

You’re doing it again Germanshepherdsmum, othering public servants, this thread is about the financial worth of the role of the doctors compared with other groups. The fact that they are paid by the government is completely irrelevant to their worth, I don’t know why you keep making the point.

‘If this country can afford to pay builders and lorry drivers’ is totally irrelevant. Private sector, market forces. The government has no control over what anyone in the private sector is paid, nor should it. It’s up to the government to determine what public sector employees are paid. I don’t know why you don’t understand the distinction. It’s not about what anyone is worth, it’s about what the employer is able and willing to pay.

Sorry, but I don't understand why you don't unerstand that if employers don't pay a decent wage and give decent conditions, be it in the private or state sector, and when market forces indicate a shortage and a need- then they will just walk to better climes.

It is very simple to understand, really.

There is a shortage in Europe too- better pay, better conditions- and in many other countries too. They are active in recruiting for the UK, with very generous offers for salary, conditions and relocation.

Market forces- as you say.

I’m not stupid Fleurpepper. You obviously think I am.

Germanshepherdsmum

‘If this country can afford to pay builders and lorry drivers’ is totally irrelevant. Private sector, market forces. The government has no control over what anyone in the private sector is paid, nor should it. It’s up to the government to determine what public sector employees are paid. I don’t know why you don’t understand the distinction. It’s not about what anyone is worth, it’s about what the employer is able and willing to pay.

Where on earth did I say that? Although you have been saying something akin for many posts- you don't understand why we don't understand! Were you calling us all stupid?

Market forces, supply and demand, apply to all sectors, private or not.

Fleurpepper

Sorry, but I don't understand why you don't unerstand that if employers don't pay a decent wage and give decent conditions, be it in the private or state sector, and when market forces indicate a shortage and a need- then they will just walk to better climes.

It is very simple to understand, really.

Quite.

Germanshepherdsmum

‘If this country can afford to pay builders and lorry drivers’ is totally irrelevant. Private sector, market forces. The government has no control over what anyone in the private sector is paid, nor should it. It’s up to the government to determine what public sector employees are paid. I don’t know why you don’t understand the distinction. It’s not about what anyone is worth, it’s about what the employer is able and willing to pay.

Maybe the country should just pay doctors minimum wage then. Why bother paying them anymore? If that’s what the country decides they’re worth, why not?

Well because doctors are highly trained, highly skilled, and in a civilised society, valued and paid appropriately for the highly skilled and trained for work they do. On the other hand……………

I just have to conclude that there are people who simply think doctors are not worth paying well. I’m very saddened by that.

In either public or private sector employees are paid what the employer can afford.

We have lots of foreign nationals in our hospitals working as doctors, nurses, physios and just about everything else. We actively recruit in the Philippines, India etc and trained staff come here because we pay better than their own countries and our training is very good.
However, it also works the other way. Australia is actively recruiting doctors and nurses (+ other areas like police and paramedics) who have been trained and are working here. They pay more and conditions of service are better.
Market forces do work in the public sector tbh I sometimes think the only thing that keeps my daughter in the UK is me, when I die I think she'll leave the UK and because she's trained in a specialism which is in very high demand she'll be able to pick and choose.
I actually don't think it's all about money (certainly not with DD) but it is about "quality of life". She did 4 X 13 hour night shifts this week and spent one of them with a "career" locum, he's been doing this for 8 years, won't work for less than £100 ph and generally works 20 hours per week. He's given up on further training, won't become a consultant but has a pretty great life because his skills are in very short supply and hospitals need them to be safe for patients.
I think we need to find a way of shifting away from relying on locum staff and to do that we need doctors who are in FT training posts who are moving through the system towards becoming a consultant. If we want this we have to pay them properly and look after them and ATM we just don't!

Germanshepherdsmum

In either public or private sector employees are paid what the employer can afford.

and they are totally free to walk away and go and work for another employer. in this case, another State, or private. They are young and free, and many not so impressed with what is happening to the country- easily tempted in such conditions.

The argument that the government/employer pays what they can afford is facile. It ignores the true complexity of the situation.

The 'penny' will drop when they are all gone. As said, many recruiting agencies proposing amazing conditions abroad or in private sector.

Nothing new there.

Germanshepherdsmum

In either public or private sector employees are paid what the employer can afford.

Sorry, that is untrue. The government pays the minimum it thinks it can get away with, affordability is not the determining factor. You know that as well as we do.

And you think private sector employers don’t do that?

You are being deliberately obtuse, for what reason I don’t know. The underpinning philosophy of a Tory small state government is to starve the public sector of funding, it has nothing to do with affordability. It’s a pointless discussion because we all know that you are already aware of that.

Germanshepherdsmum

‘If this country can afford to pay builders and lorry drivers’ is totally irrelevant. Private sector, market forces. The government has no control over what anyone in the private sector is paid, nor should it. It’s up to the government to determine what public sector employees are paid. I don’t know why you don’t understand the distinction. It’s not about what anyone is worth, it’s about what the employer is able and willing to pay.

It is pretty obvious that those employing in the public sector are also subject to market forces, just as they should be.

Your views are very extreme on this and the truth weirdly adapted to suit them GSM.

It has been said that doctors are part of the public sector and therefore any increased pay has to come out of the public purse,, whereas what private employers pay their staff is a matter for them. However, indirectly we will bear the cost of the increased pay of lorry drivers and other employees in the private sector. Many such employers are now raising the pay of their workers, in order to retain them and not to have keep training up new staff. Employers will then pass on at least of proportion of that increased cost to customers.

I suspect that if nursing and medical staff don't get a reasonable rise, many will be looking elsewhere for decent pay - either in the private sector or abroad. Then the government will be faced with trying to recruit large numbers of trainee doctors - which, I think, will cost a lot of money, especially if they cannot retain those doctors. So, in my opinion, it is self defeating. As I have said before, though, the Conservatives have never, from its inception, been keen on the notion of a national health service, but I doubt there will be much talk now from Hunt and those who have in the past supported dismantling the health system, as there is an election in the offing. I suspect they will just allow the health service to become so chaotic and dysfunctional, in the hope that the population will turn against it.