Junior doctors strike

foxie I agree with Glorianny, you’ve written a brilliant post.

This is nothing to do with the doctors' strikes. A plumber's charges are not his 'pay'. He will be charging for offtakes, NI, tax, wear and tear of equipment, transport, maybe premises, an accountant, insurance and goodness knows what else before he or she gets anything for him or herself. Doctors, in common with most other employees, are paid after their employers have factored all of that in.

The 'who is more valuable?' debate is massively complicated, and like pretty much everything is political. IMO (as a believer in a large but liberal state) we, collectively, should pay for all training and education for anyone who can benefit from it, and in the case of those whose careers are (or can be) in the public sector this should be in return for a pro-rata contract with the trainee that they will work for a pre-arranged period of time in the role for which they've been trained at a pre-agreed and index linked rate which is clear to both parties at the time of starting the training.

Those going into private sector careers could have additional taxes until their training is paid for. I would have no differential between expensive and cheaper courses - training would be at a flat rate to the trainee, so an engineer who needs expensive equipment to learn on would be paying back no more than someone whose course is book-based and cheaper to teach. I would make it prohibitively expensive, or even impossible for someone trained on a 'public sector' free course to switch to a private sector role before their payback time has elapsed.

That way, if we need more doctors/teachers/town planners, we can pay for them in the knowledge that they will be there for x years, and nobody need be put off going into any profession, trade or whatever because of the cost of training. That would restrict the field to the most talented, not those most able to absorb prohibitive costs. A sensible government (I know, but this is never going to happen anyway ) could plan for things like surges in the birthrate, an ageing population, or whatever, and ensure that there are enough relevant people to fill the roles that are needed.

I wouldn't exclude poets, musicians and artists from any of this. They would still get free education in the Arts, and would pay taxes on their work washing dishes and waiting tables which is how most make their living, but would stop us from becoming a nation of barbarians. I see them as worthy too. As are hairdressers and other groups who earn little but work hard and improve our lives in different ways.

Differentials in pay are, IMO, necessary, but there shouldn't be as much of a gap as there is now. We all need one another - yes, we can't do without some things (eg ambulance drivers, doctors, care workers), but life would be pretty inconvenient without sewage workers, plumbers and shop assistants and miserable without TV producers, actors, artists and authors.

But I definitely support the doctors! They do deserve more money - so do many other groups, but that does not detract from the doctor' case.

ronib

The King’s Fund is a good place to start for facts.

I regularly refer to the Kings Fund, but their speciality is detailed analysis based on historical information, it’s not useful for analysing the here and now position.

Doctors already work four years compulsory for the NHS. The last two years of their medical training, in wards and GPs surgeries, working unpaid as student doctors. Sometimes supervised, often not supervised, but they are working. Then as employed, fully qualified doctors, for two further years as F1 and F2. Foundation grade junior doctors, working in the NHS. Poorly paid, but paid. Long hours, unsocial hours, often the only doctor for many wards at night. Often no time to go to the loo my daughter told me. I think that’s as much as we can expect of enforced working in the NHS. Two years unpaid and two years paid.

I was talking generally, about the 'who is worth more' debate, maddy. Not just about doctors. I think education and training should be free at point of use, but should be paid back in kind, for everyone, not just doctors. That would remove the 'oh but it costs a lot to train' argument, as well as the things I pointed to in my earlier post, which is just thinking aloud, really.

Things now are not fair for any of us. So many groups are disadvantaged and overworked and demoralised and bloody angry. I do support the doctors, but as I say, their case is not helped by the suggestion that they are intrinsically more or less worthy than other groups, how much their training costs, or how many move away or into other sectors after qualifying.

We should be looking at fairness for everyone, and that absolutely includes junior doctors who are working unreasonable house for far too little reward.

Yes I understand Doodledog. And I agree with you.

Casdon look again at the King’s Fund as it is very much in the here and now. A very credible charity working hard to improve the health service should not be so easily dismissed by you or anyone else!

There you go again Casdon, dismissing things...😏

🥱

As if ronib. I used the Kings Fund regularly in my working life, and I still do - I regularly refer to articles in response to Gransnet threads too. They do produce press releases, but there’s nothing recent about the topic of this thread that I’ve seen, please post if you have found something relevant?

Doodledog

Excellent and thought-provoking post.

You are talking about a more fair, more equitable society for all. One that would function much better than it does at the moment. And I'm sure there are many who would agree with you.

But it seems like there's something intrinsically wrong in expecting a more just society because the minute you propose such, all kinds of posters (and I'm talking about the whole of social media) pop up to tell you that it can't work, it's not possible, you have to reward the high-achievers with huge salaries and low taxes, otherwise they'll bugger off somewhere else and take their wealth with them. They'll also insist that the low-paid should just - "get another job if you don't like it, or work harder or longer." It seems to be ingrained - we accept the huge wealth gap between rich and poor, and if you argue against it, it's either the politics of envy... or you're a Marxist.

I've been reading comments on an article about Elon Musk. Any criticism of him is met with an almost standard response which relates to the fact that he's hugely, hugely, rich and therefore very clever, and we must all admire him because.... he's so wealthy. You don't criticise billionaires - because you're not as rich as they are, therefore your comments are worthless. I made the point that sometimes empire-builders over-estimate their abilities and take wrong turns, and things begin to fall apart. Absolute heresy! I should keep quiet, I know nothing, his fans were on me like a ton of bricks! He's infallible!

Wealth is admired, wealthy people are admired. Know your place serf, and be impressed with a top-hat.

Dickens 👍
It’s beginning to feel our country is returning to the kind of deference that used to be shown to our betters. Now it’s shown to the stinking rich

I'm with the junior medics it shouldn't need to come to them having to take this action The Govt is at fault

Glorianny

Callistemon21

Glorianny

Callistemon21

Glorianny

Yammy

maddyone

The entitlement thing is plain weird Maddy…..

I know Sue but I guess it is what it is.

The complaints about doctors on this thread make me ashamed. Some of the entitlement is visible here. The comments that doctors shouldn’t strike, are paid enough, should be made to work in the NHS for two years (they do already) a lack of understanding/ignorance about training and service and qualifications and working conditions etc. Too many people who don’t actually give a toss so long as the doctors are there when they want them to be. Total disinterest in the reasons these strikes have arisen. It’s all here on Gransnet.

Thank you to those who do understand and thankfully there are many of these too. Maizie, Wyllow, SueDonim, Foxie, Iam64, and others too many to name, just thank you for understanding the situation in all it’s complexity.

I understand Maddyone my husband is a retired medic and empathises with them as do I.
Last night we were doing our family finances and realised our repair man charges £80 per hour to service the central heating boiler and AGA. Maybe we are paying over the odds. I bet he started his apprenticeship at 16 on a poor salary yes.
Not at 24 after 5 + years at uni plus two in hospital until they still only gain a BA,BSC and have to study at night and weekends to get their M.D. To be truly a DR. Until you live with them you have no understanding.
My only grumble would be they could be a bit more decorous in their protesting they are not helping themselves by being displayed on TV> as a rowdy rabble, not the professionals they are.

Yammy your boilerman may have done a short (6 months I think) course to register as a gas fitter. He can still charge that much. He'll be self employed so will have costs to take off, but he'll be earning more than a lot of doctors.

To be fair, a plumbing apprenticeship can take up to five years and training as a gas engineer will be on top of that but yes, they can then charge far more than a junior doctor gets paid and, generally, work far more social hours.

We're in chaos now and heading for a complete breakdown in NHS services as more and more stressed and disillusioned doctors and nurses leave the professions.
What is wrong with a Government which won't even enter negotiations?

Callistemon plumbers have not necessity to serve an apprenticeship although some may. You wouldn't know if your plumber was term served or not.
Both can do short courses trades.education/gas.html

Possibly, but that is not what I or anyone would say is a fully qualified plumber.

Come on Callistemon21 just admit you were wrong. I very much doubt that anyone asks their plumber if they are "fully qualified" and "time served" you use one you've used before or one someone recommended.
Job comparisons are useful when people think a junior doctor who has thousands of pounds worth of debt after years of training is worth less per hour than a plumber.
Plumbers deserve their money but so do junior doctors.
The difference is one can charge you more in times of inflation, whereas the other is stuck, dependent on a government that doesn't want the organisation that employs them anyway.

One does not preclude the other, Glorianny and you only seem to have seen my comments on your comparisons in extremist terms.

I was not the one first comparing plumbers to doctors, you were, but merely pointed out that a reputable plumber and someone who deals with gas should be well qualified.
I then pointed out that they can earn far more than junior doctors and work more social hours.

I did not say that was right or condone it.

However, anyone who uses barely qualified tradesmen to deal with such things as gas and boilers, emissions, is very foolish imo.

I very much doubt that anyone asks their plumber if they are "fully qualified" and "time served"

Well, be careful if you do during this strike.

Thank you Dickens.

Where do we start, though? If someone were setting up British society now, I'm sure they wouldn't do it as it is now. Like so often happens when something's been going on for ages it has stopped making sense. It's all but impossible to dismantle something as complicated as this without some sort of ground zero moment (or decade, usually) and that brings with it casualties and hardship, and can leave the door open to destructive forces to muscle in.

This is nothing to do with the doctors' strikes. A plumber's charges are not his 'pay'. He will be charging for offtakes, NI, tax, wear and tear of equipment, transport, maybe premises, an accountant, insurance and goodness knows what else before he or she gets anything for him or herself. Doctors, in common with most other employees, are paid after their employers have factored all of that in

No, I have no idea why Glorianny introduced the subject and I'll admit I was wrong to engage with her.
It was a ridiculous comparison.

I defy anybody to read that ridiculous and slanted Daily Mail article and tell me that its all fine and they only buy it for the crosswords and the weekend magazine

Its disgusting

volver

I haven't seen the article because we only buy the Daily Mail for the TV guide.

Is it unpleasant?

Thanks.

You could follow the link upthread.

But I wouldn't advise it.

I did it so you don't have to.

Thank you, very kind.

I'm not in the mood for it today.

Callistemon21

^This is nothing to do with the doctors' strikes. A plumber's charges are not his 'pay'. He will be charging for offtakes, NI, tax, wear and tear of equipment, transport, maybe premises, an accountant, insurance and goodness knows what else before he or she gets anything for him or herself. Doctors, in common with most other employees, are paid after their employers have factored all of that in^

No, I have no idea why Glorianny introduced the subject and I'll admit I was wrong to engage with her.
It was a ridiculous comparison.

I didn't actually introduce the subject if you care to check back Calistemon21 but I realise in pointing out the realities of the training necessary to set up as a plumber or gas fitter I have upset your false preconceptions.
However if you want another comparison. There is a desperate shortage of plumbers and gas fitters and little opportunity for apprenticeships. In order to deal with this, short courses leading to city and guilds and NVQ qualifications were introduced. I wonder if we reach the desperate doctor shortage we are heading for will there will be a way introduced to qualify in medicine without the years at Uni?
Doodledog I did acknowledge that the £80 quoted as charged for an hour servicing a boiler (not by me) would need to have the plumber's costs deducted from it. They still come out with more than Junior doctors.

I really don't want to get into the 'who is worth more?' thing. I will, however, say that a 50 year old plumber will not, on average, earn more than a 5 year old doctor, particularly a specialist, but I don't see that it's relevant to this discussion.

Obviously I meant a 50 year old doctor

Doodledog

I really don't want to get into the 'who is worth more?' thing. I will, however, say that a 50 year old plumber will not, on average, earn more than a 5 year old doctor, particularly a specialist, but I don't see that it's relevant to this discussion.

It's not.