Junior doctors strike

Oh, should have said.

I nearly died a decade ago when a doctor misdiagnosed me. It hasn't left me bitter and it's doesn't mean I think all doctors should work for a pittance because they are bad guys.

Casdon I didn’t say ‘most’ people agreed with me.

Oreo

Casdon I didn’t say ‘most’ people agreed with me.

I know. You said many people agree with you. I said most people don’t agree with you.

Meanwhile MSM reports that Dr Robert Laurenson , co leader of the BMA is on one week’s holiday. Also that the BMA has asked ACAS to get involved with the government yet to agree.

I have no doctors in my family. I support the junior doctors (and other healthcare staff that are striking) completely. This is because I want an NHS, or other universal healthcare system, for my last years, for my children, for my grandchildren, and even for those of you who apparently don’t give a toss.

ronib

Meanwhile MSM reports that Dr Robert Laurenson , co leader of the BMA is on one week’s holiday. Also that the BMA has asked ACAS to get involved with the government yet to agree.

I wondered when someone would mention this! Laurenson is a trainee GP so I can't speak for his leave arrangements but I can tell you about obtaining leave as a junior hospital doctor. They are allocated a rota and if they want leave when they are booked to work they have to organise this themselves by getting a colleague to swap with them. This is always difficult to do around holiday periods as these are times when everyone wants to be off but when it's for a special reason likes weddings and funerals etc, other doctors will often help out by swapping shifts but sometimes it's not possible. my daughter has missed weddings, Christmas's etc but it's just part of the job. For all we know, Laurenson may have been on off days following shifts, his GP practice may be closed over Easter for 4 days and he'd organised cover for the rest of his shift or taken leave well in advance of the decision to strike and already worked his extra shifts to cover. He is though, like everyone else who works entitled to have a holiday.

I'm one of the ones with a retired doctor in my family, but I'm not supporting the strike because of the -its helpful additional information is all.

Have very reason to be scared and even bitter: cut backs a couple of years doctors and nurses ago seriously affected my care in one respect of doctors and nurses: I am currently sporting a pre-cancerous lump and will have to wait longer than comfortable for its removal.

But I place the blame where it belongs: in a government who has been underfunding the NHS for years, which we all know about given waiting times, again for some considerable time, with lack of care facilities to move people onto:

Not with 4 days of strikes.

www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-11966963/STEPHEN-GLOVER-junior-doctors-backing-strike-based-falsehood.html

Also another excellent article in the DM today by Andrew Pierce.

Look at the wealth gap.

Look at what those important big-boys of businesses and large corporations insist they are worth (and sometimes rely on the government to top-up the wages of their lower ranks). Look at MPs who have pretty hefty, regular, pay rises. Look at those two, Hancock and Kwarteng caught in a Led By Donkeys' trap, stating what they wanted as a 'fee'... what they think they are worth.

These are the same people who are pontificating, telling us directly, or indirectly, that junior doctors are being unrealistic and implying they are 'greedy'.

Who is paying for the wage top-ups for the workers of those companies who don't pay a realistic wage? Who's paying for the MPs salaries?

Stephen Glover.

Not Tory-boy Pierce.

Ah, the well informed Daily Mail reader....what a blessing they are.

volver3

Stephen Glover.

Not Tory-boy Pierce.

Ah, the well informed Daily Mail reader....what a blessing they are.

We had this discussion yesterday. People are free to read or not as they choose but the facts are there.

It is down to the tory government with their lack funding in health, in education, in care. I too support the junior doctors, as I do the teachers.

Primrose53

volver3

Stephen Glover.

Not Tory-boy Pierce.

Ah, the well informed Daily Mail reader....what a blessing they are.

We had this discussion yesterday. People are free to read or not as they choose but the facts are there.

I defy anybody to read that ridiculous and slanted Daily Mail article and tell me that its all fine and they only buy it for the crosswords and the weekend magazine

Its disgusting.

Callistemon21

Glorianny

Yammy

maddyone

The entitlement thing is plain weird Maddy…..

I know Sue but I guess it is what it is.

The complaints about doctors on this thread make me ashamed. Some of the entitlement is visible here. The comments that doctors shouldn’t strike, are paid enough, should be made to work in the NHS for two years (they do already) a lack of understanding/ignorance about training and service and qualifications and working conditions etc. Too many people who don’t actually give a toss so long as the doctors are there when they want them to be. Total disinterest in the reasons these strikes have arisen. It’s all here on Gransnet.

Thank you to those who do understand and thankfully there are many of these too. Maizie, Wyllow, SueDonim, Foxie, Iam64, and others too many to name, just thank you for understanding the situation in all it’s complexity.

I understand Maddyone my husband is a retired medic and empathises with them as do I.
Last night we were doing our family finances and realised our repair man charges £80 per hour to service the central heating boiler and AGA. Maybe we are paying over the odds. I bet he started his apprenticeship at 16 on a poor salary yes.
Not at 24 after 5 + years at uni plus two in hospital until they still only gain a BA,BSC and have to study at night and weekends to get their M.D. To be truly a DR. Until you live with them you have no understanding.
My only grumble would be they could be a bit more decorous in their protesting they are not helping themselves by being displayed on TV> as a rowdy rabble, not the professionals they are.

Yammy your boilerman may have done a short (6 months I think) course to register as a gas fitter. He can still charge that much. He'll be self employed so will have costs to take off, but he'll be earning more than a lot of doctors.

To be fair, a plumbing apprenticeship can take up to five years and training as a gas engineer will be on top of that but yes, they can then charge far more than a junior doctor gets paid and, generally, work far more social hours.

We're in chaos now and heading for a complete breakdown in NHS services as more and more stressed and disillusioned doctors and nurses leave the professions.
What is wrong with a Government which won't even enter negotiations?

Callistemon plumbers have not necessity to serve an apprenticeship although some may. You wouldn't know if your plumber was term served or not.
Both can do short courses trades.education/gas.html

Glorianny

Callistemon21

Glorianny

Yammy

maddyone

The entitlement thing is plain weird Maddy…..

I know Sue but I guess it is what it is.

The complaints about doctors on this thread make me ashamed. Some of the entitlement is visible here. The comments that doctors shouldn’t strike, are paid enough, should be made to work in the NHS for two years (they do already) a lack of understanding/ignorance about training and service and qualifications and working conditions etc. Too many people who don’t actually give a toss so long as the doctors are there when they want them to be. Total disinterest in the reasons these strikes have arisen. It’s all here on Gransnet.

Thank you to those who do understand and thankfully there are many of these too. Maizie, Wyllow, SueDonim, Foxie, Iam64, and others too many to name, just thank you for understanding the situation in all it’s complexity.

I understand Maddyone my husband is a retired medic and empathises with them as do I.
Last night we were doing our family finances and realised our repair man charges £80 per hour to service the central heating boiler and AGA. Maybe we are paying over the odds. I bet he started his apprenticeship at 16 on a poor salary yes.
Not at 24 after 5 + years at uni plus two in hospital until they still only gain a BA,BSC and have to study at night and weekends to get their M.D. To be truly a DR. Until you live with them you have no understanding.
My only grumble would be they could be a bit more decorous in their protesting they are not helping themselves by being displayed on TV> as a rowdy rabble, not the professionals they are.

Yammy your boilerman may have done a short (6 months I think) course to register as a gas fitter. He can still charge that much. He'll be self employed so will have costs to take off, but he'll be earning more than a lot of doctors.

To be fair, a plumbing apprenticeship can take up to five years and training as a gas engineer will be on top of that but yes, they can then charge far more than a junior doctor gets paid and, generally, work far more social hours.

We're in chaos now and heading for a complete breakdown in NHS services as more and more stressed and disillusioned doctors and nurses leave the professions.
What is wrong with a Government which won't even enter negotiations?

Callistemon plumbers have not necessity to serve an apprenticeship although some may. You wouldn't know if your plumber was term served or not.
Both can do short courses trades.education/gas.html

Possibly, but that is not what I or anyone would say is a fully qualified plumber.

Anyway, job comparisons are not really helpful as we head towards a meltdown in the NHS.

Bless the Daily Mail’s little Schrodinger’s heart:

The BMA has been taken over by socialists who are actually capitalist swine, demanding more money for doctors…

The worth of a person according to their job is interesting isn’t it? Is a junior doctor or a back bench MP worth more? Why does a top lawyer, barrister, or KC, earn absolutely hugely more than a consultant level doctor? Aren’t the skills of the two commensurate? Not too sure about the skills of the average back bench MP, but I do know about the skills of a junior doctor.
If find it strange that some posters actually seem to want junior doctors to work for low pay and seem resentful of them asking for their pay to be corrected to the level it was some ten or so years ago. It baffles me.

Why does a top lawyer, barrister, or KC, earn absolutely hugely more than a consultant level doctor?

I was thinking about this yesterday, and about Yammy paying £60 an hour for servicing her boiler. And about how people willingly pay £30 per hr or more labour charges to the garage that services their car; or £40 - 50 for a private physio. Yes and £100s per hr for a top barrister...

Yet they are squealing about paying NHS doctors a bit more than the living wage. And moaning and groaning about the poor service they get from GPs. And saying that they shouldn't be leaving the NHS to get better paid jobs abroad because being a doctor is a 'vocation' and people with a 'vocation' should be expected to work for a pittance because... because why?

Does this all boil down to the fact that the NHS is publicly funded, which seems to be a Bad Thing in their eyes and all the other well paid occupations are really private enterprise? Or do they just not care that the tories have been underfunding the NHS (and other public services) for the past 13 years that they have been in power and that the NHS is at crisis point?

Are they looking forward to a US style health services where if you can't afford to pay you die? Because if the junior doctors don't win this fight this is where we are heading...

I'm not the only person on this thread who has pointed out that the government has made an ideological choice not to pay decent wages, a choice that they have been making for the past 13 years with pay freezes for public sector staff. I also am not the only person to point out that the money is always there for what the government wants to spend it on.

I have pointed out over and over again that state investment in services actually helps to grow the economy and will increase the tax take; not my 'opinion' but the factually based opinion of many economists. But let's just ignore that and have a moan...

Callistemon21

Glorianny

Callistemon21

Glorianny

Yammy

maddyone

The entitlement thing is plain weird Maddy…..

I know Sue but I guess it is what it is.

The complaints about doctors on this thread make me ashamed. Some of the entitlement is visible here. The comments that doctors shouldn’t strike, are paid enough, should be made to work in the NHS for two years (they do already) a lack of understanding/ignorance about training and service and qualifications and working conditions etc. Too many people who don’t actually give a toss so long as the doctors are there when they want them to be. Total disinterest in the reasons these strikes have arisen. It’s all here on Gransnet.

Thank you to those who do understand and thankfully there are many of these too. Maizie, Wyllow, SueDonim, Foxie, Iam64, and others too many to name, just thank you for understanding the situation in all it’s complexity.

I understand Maddyone my husband is a retired medic and empathises with them as do I.
Last night we were doing our family finances and realised our repair man charges £80 per hour to service the central heating boiler and AGA. Maybe we are paying over the odds. I bet he started his apprenticeship at 16 on a poor salary yes.
Not at 24 after 5 + years at uni plus two in hospital until they still only gain a BA,BSC and have to study at night and weekends to get their M.D. To be truly a DR. Until you live with them you have no understanding.
My only grumble would be they could be a bit more decorous in their protesting they are not helping themselves by being displayed on TV> as a rowdy rabble, not the professionals they are.

Yammy your boilerman may have done a short (6 months I think) course to register as a gas fitter. He can still charge that much. He'll be self employed so will have costs to take off, but he'll be earning more than a lot of doctors.

To be fair, a plumbing apprenticeship can take up to five years and training as a gas engineer will be on top of that but yes, they can then charge far more than a junior doctor gets paid and, generally, work far more social hours.

We're in chaos now and heading for a complete breakdown in NHS services as more and more stressed and disillusioned doctors and nurses leave the professions.
What is wrong with a Government which won't even enter negotiations?

Callistemon plumbers have not necessity to serve an apprenticeship although some may. You wouldn't know if your plumber was term served or not.
Both can do short courses trades.education/gas.html

Possibly, but that is not what I or anyone would say is a fully qualified plumber.

Come on Callistemon21 just admit you were wrong. I very much doubt that anyone asks their plumber if they are "fully qualified" and "time served" you use one you've used before or one someone recommended.
Job comparisons are useful when people think a junior doctor who has thousands of pounds worth of debt after years of training is worth less per hour than a plumber.
Plumbers deserve their money but so do junior doctors.
The difference is one can charge you more in times of inflation, whereas the other is stuck, dependent on a government that doesn't want the organisation that employs them anyway.

It is indeed a funny old world with topsy turvy values. Hancock thinks he's worth £10k an hour, which would actually pay up to three junior doctors for a month depending on their level of experience. It's OK to drop the ceiling on banker's bonus's because we don't want them defecting to other countries but not OK to pay doctors a decent wage to keep them working for the NHS. It's fine to change the pension rules to stop Consultants retiring early but fail to mention that it also benefits far more high earners who earn loads more than consultants. Some of us don't want to pay higher taxes but will vote for people who don't pay their taxes (NZ). It's OK for MPs to have lucrative second jobs which they do instead of their constituency work but not OK for doctors to work privately outside their contracted hours and it's perfectly acceptable to provide subsidised meals on site for MPs but not for hospital doctors. I could go on........

foxie48 that's brilliant, wish there was a like button!

volver3

Primrose53

volver3

Stephen Glover.

Not Tory-boy Pierce.

Ah, the well informed Daily Mail reader....what a blessing they are.

We had this discussion yesterday. People are free to read or not as they choose but the facts are there.

I defy anybody to read that ridiculous and slanted Daily Mail article and tell me that its all fine and they only buy it for the crosswords and the weekend magazine

Its disgusting.

Thought you refused to read it!🤣🤣🤣

Remember, just because you have an opinion doesn’t mean you are right …… and thousands would disagree with you.

It's time for the opinion vs. facts chat again, isn't it?

The King’s Fund is a good place to start for facts.