Junior doctors strike

ronib

If gps are covering in A&E for £200 an hour, who is covering for the gps?

Nobody I expect! Causing even more people to attend A&E because they cannot get an appointment with their GP!

mumofmadboys

Oldbat1 - you say your neighbours 3 children are part time GPs. Full time General Practice is a killer! It is exhausting and draining. Men sometimes manage it because they have wives to support them. Most GPs need at least one day off in the week to catch up with sleep, home or paperwork. I was a part time GP for many years. I couldn't have survived full time

My friends daughter is a part-time GP, partner. Apparently (and I have no idea how this is possible really, nor have I reason to dispute what my friend is telling me) she earns £17,000 a year!

She may be on the GP retention scheme
"The GP retention scheme is a package of support for GPs considering leaving the profession – and for the practices employing them – to help them remain in clinical practice, providing one to four sessions per week."

Apparently when intending doctors are interviewed few ask about compassion, rather more about exam results and prowess on the sports field. My 'training to be doctors' grandchildren are in it for status and money which is a sad thing to report. Perhaps they'll change in time. And yes, I remember in the days before the NHS when to be a doctor was a vocation, often father to son. And people were seldom turned away but charged what they could reasonably afford (that according to my mother).
Doctors had surgeries morning and evening and visited their very sick patients in the afternoons.
My awakening came in 1968 when I had 2 sick infants covered in spots and the doctor said wrap them in a blanket and bring them over the road - pretty difficult with 2! Okay, it wasn't too bad and was only Roseola (or something) and they quickly recovered but it was a lesson to me in false expectations.

Siope

I think people may die as a result of this strike. I think exponentially more will die without it.

I support it, with deep sadness that the government’s ideology has led to this.

People ARE dying, and this was before the strikes, due to the massive backlogs in A&E

www.theguardian.com/society/2023/jan/01/up-to-500-deaths-a-week-due-to-ae-delays-says-senior-medic

I have had 24 lots of surgery in 22 years - I have seen the decline. In 2010 it was just getting to be really good, there was a target - 18 weeks from GP referral to treatment and home, and if you weren't getting that, you could challenge it, as I did in 2008 when it would have been 32 weeks, and my hospital were lying in the KPI stats that they were reporting to the Govt. My surgeon came in on his day off and operated on 3 of us ....

I am currently in a 'watch and wait' scenario, waiting and watching for my bowel to strangulate and die as it did in 2020, when I was left screaming in agony for hours in the corridor. I have found quite often that the junior doctors can be quite arrogant - it used to be when I had a blockage, I would go in, I would get sufficient analgesia to allow my bowel to relax and I would be out of their hair within their 4 hour limit, and for those that listened to me, that would be the case. Now they act as though the 2 Paracetamol they give you is coming from their own pocket! IF my bowel were too strangulate, I'm sort of hoping it will do it during the strike so that at least, it will be a consultant who sees me! Mind you, whether or not there'll be enough staff to operate on it is a different matter entirely ..... scary times for me.

gn38 if your grandchildren manage to get a training placwe at med school they may be sorely disappointed. Doctors no longer have the status they used to have, you only have to read the comments on this thread and they are certainly not well paid. I suggest they go into banking or recruitment for the money. I doubt they'll enjoy it much when they do their first rectal examination, smell the breath of a patient with a severe lung infection or get covered in body fluids of one sort or another, or have to tell a parent that their beloved child is dead. If I were you I'd have a chat with them to put them straight!

foxie48

She may be on the GP retention scheme
"The GP retention scheme is a package of support for GPs considering leaving the profession – and for the practices employing them – to help them remain in clinical practice, providing one to four sessions per week."

Thank you *foxie48

foxie48

gn38 if your grandchildren manage to get a training placwe at med school they may be sorely disappointed. Doctors no longer have the status they used to have, you only have to read the comments on this thread and they are certainly not well paid. I suggest they go into banking or recruitment for the money. I doubt they'll enjoy it much when they do their first rectal examination, smell the breath of a patient with a severe lung infection or get covered in body fluids of one sort or another, or have to tell a parent that their beloved child is dead. If I were you I'd have a chat with them to put them straight!

Absolutely!
Law carries status and if they’re good enough, pays extremely well. It mustn’t be criminal law though, that doesn’t pay well because guess what, the government set the level.

Everybody can write sob stories about how poor and overworked junior doctors are but as they progress they start earning very generous salaries. They also get extremely good pensions and most of them retire early. Take GPs, they don’t do anywhere near what GPs did years ago. They did everything including home visits. You can forget those now.

If you have a doctor in your family, obviously you sympathise with them but if you have had poor treatment, suffered a death in the family because of negligent treatment or failure to refer you for further tests which result in a terminal illness then you don’t have much sympathy.

Just look at the lists of doctors who have been struck off, have abused patients, have stolen drugs, have killed patients etc. Not all Doctors are the next thing to God!

Primrose
You don’t know what you don’t know.

Primrose53

Everybody can write sob stories about how poor and overworked junior doctors are but as they progress they start earning very generous salaries. They also get extremely good pensions and most of them retire early. Take GPs, they don’t do anywhere near what GPs did years ago. They did everything including home visits. You can forget those now.

If you have a doctor in your family, obviously you sympathise with them but if you have had poor treatment, suffered a death in the family because of negligent treatment or failure to refer you for further tests which result in a terminal illness then you don’t have much sympathy.

Just look at the lists of doctors who have been struck off, have abused patients, have stolen drugs, have killed patients etc. Not all Doctors are the next thing to God!

Wow, I can only assume that you've had a bad experience with a doctor. I have too, I broke 2 vertebrae in an accident, had brilliant care from the paramedics who took me to hospital but had the most appalling treatment in my local hospital. I am very lucky that I still have use of my arms and legs. However, I don't judge every doctor and nurse by that experience as I've also had excellent treatment. There are good and bad in every profession but I think there are many more good doctors and nurses than bad ones. I hope you complained formally if you had a "bad" experience. I did and I strongly support anyone else who does. Doctors are not the next thing to God but they do stop many people from meeting him prematurely!

Primrose53

Everybody can write sob stories about how poor and overworked junior doctors are but as they progress they start earning very generous salaries. They also get extremely good pensions and most of them retire early. Take GPs, they don’t do anywhere near what GPs did years ago. They did everything including home visits. You can forget those now.

If you have a doctor in your family, obviously you sympathise with them but if you have had poor treatment, suffered a death in the family because of negligent treatment or failure to refer you for further tests which result in a terminal illness then you don’t have much sympathy.

Just look at the lists of doctors who have been struck off, have abused patients, have stolen drugs, have killed patients etc. Not all Doctors are the next thing to God!

No, they aren't next to God, but I cannot imagine anyone going into the profession who didn't have some form of compassion in them? I have received very poor treatment from some of them over the years, more so from nurses actually, and I am one so I know how it should be done

As for Home Visits, I can get one if I need one

Oh, for heaven's sake, Primrose53, you seem to be confusing GPs with hospital doctors. GPs are not on strike. It's the 'junior' doctors in hospitals who are on strike. And 'junior' , as has been already been explained, several times, means any grade of doctor below Consultant level.

There are bad practitioners in any profession or job. No, doctors are not gods, they are fallible human beings. But perhaps you'd like to tell us how many doctors there are in England and Wales and just what percentage of them are struck off every year. Then your comments might hold some weight.. Otherwise they're just a bit of irrelevant whataboutery.

If you, or friends or family have experienced poor care I am sorry but it's no reason to tar the entire profession with the same brush...

Primrose53, you sound very very angry and unable to see any of the comments here that don’t share your anger, as being driven by “sob stories”.
What an offensive way to describe views you disagree with. My husband died 6 months ago, after the most difficult six months of our lives. One of my over riding memories are the end of life discussion with the ‘junior’ doctor’ on his ward. Then the nurse we were introduced to who was to be lead care in the five days during which his life on this earth ebbed away. That nurse worked 14 hour days. Her professional skill superb but her compassion, ability to sit with us, holding our hands, hugging appropriately, and always talking to him, explaining what she was about to do.

I’m so pleased that you received such wonderful care and compassion Iam.
When my father was dying some seven years ago, it was a junior doctor who told us. We were given the facts but in a compassionate way. It’s really not something I would have liked on my job description.

My mum was in hospital over Christmas after her last fall. She had severe cramp due to a sodium deficiency. A junior doctor had to be sent for. He seemed to be the only doctor around. He seemed very young, but he was caring, compassionate and amusing. He was wearing a Christmas jumper which my mum loved. But the amount of responsibility he had was incredible. All of those patients depending on him. I can't think any amount would really be enough as recompense for such responsibilities.

Why are you so bitter, Primrose? I don't think for a minute all doctors or nurses are saints, they are human beings like the rest of us and don't always respond in an ideal way when under extreme pressures. but when you look at the whole picture, we stand together or fall in terms of having a decent health service.

Like anyone else, doctors and nurses need appreciation and suitable recognition of their work to best function. Lets give them that, instead of denigration and criticism.

Our leaders - all of whmhave access to private care

dont care. We need to direct our anger there, not at those on the picket lines. BTW, locally our local hospital has picket lines outside and they are quietly standing with banners etc - its a minority who shout in a way that offends some.

Doctors qualifying at the time of my sister mostly had substantial backing of the bank of mum and dad. I'm glad the profession is now open to many without that backing but it means they need both financial and emotional support. the same programme (Look North, BBC) did a vox pop interview in a very ordinary area of my town. The support was amazing from the "I'm not political but...".

I still don't understand the thinking(?) of those who rubbish medical professionals and then stamp their metaphorical feet, blaming the very same health experts when they do not always get what they expect when they expect it. Why are the doctors, nurses, paramedics, etc., to blame?

I wonder if those saying such things know what people with these very high qualifications can earn elsewhere. They seem to want to chase them towards these jobs. Do they realise how sort after these people are? Do they re

Everyone has a living to earn and owes it to themselves and their families to make that the best it can be while doing the best that they can. Perhaps they are out of touch with the international market in salaries doctors can earn. In this country, this government has given them real-term cuts in earnings for the last 14 years. Perhaps they don't understand what that means either.

I can think of no other reason for the bitter criticism towards those working for our health care under the worst circumstances chosen by, I would suggest, any government since the war. It is not just the drag on salaries but the conditions they work under. The NHS has been starved of funding. They haven't decided this because we can't afford it. They have chosen it because they believe only in private health care as, I presume, do those that put them into government and vote to keep them there.

Glorianny

Yammy

maddyone

The entitlement thing is plain weird Maddy…..

I know Sue but I guess it is what it is.

The complaints about doctors on this thread make me ashamed. Some of the entitlement is visible here. The comments that doctors shouldn’t strike, are paid enough, should be made to work in the NHS for two years (they do already) a lack of understanding/ignorance about training and service and qualifications and working conditions etc. Too many people who don’t actually give a toss so long as the doctors are there when they want them to be. Total disinterest in the reasons these strikes have arisen. It’s all here on Gransnet.

Thank you to those who do understand and thankfully there are many of these too. Maizie, Wyllow, SueDonim, Foxie, Iam64, and others too many to name, just thank you for understanding the situation in all it’s complexity.

I understand Maddyone my husband is a retired medic and empathises with them as do I.
Last night we were doing our family finances and realised our repair man charges £80 per hour to service the central heating boiler and AGA. Maybe we are paying over the odds. I bet he started his apprenticeship at 16 on a poor salary yes.
Not at 24 after 5 + years at uni plus two in hospital until they still only gain a BA,BSC and have to study at night and weekends to get their M.D. To be truly a DR. Until you live with them you have no understanding.
My only grumble would be they could be a bit more decorous in their protesting they are not helping themselves by being displayed on TV> as a rowdy rabble, not the professionals they are.

Yammy your boilerman may have done a short (6 months I think) course to register as a gas fitter. He can still charge that much. He'll be self employed so will have costs to take off, but he'll be earning more than a lot of doctors.

To be fair, a plumbing apprenticeship can take up to five years and training as a gas engineer will be on top of that but yes, they can then charge far more than a junior doctor gets paid and, generally, work far more social hours.

We're in chaos now and heading for a complete breakdown in NHS services as more and more stressed and disillusioned doctors and nurses leave the professions.
What is wrong with a Government which won't even enter negotiations?

They also get extremely good pensions and most of them retire early

Consultants are retiring earlier than they need or want to because of the rules about how much they can contribute to their pension funds.

Another ridiculous scenario which helps no-one as experienced doctors leave the profession.

I really do not agree with the junior doctors striking. Not only are lives going to be placed at risk, the lengthy wait for operations and treatment is only going to worsen. Everyone would like better pay but this is often not realistic. The government should pay them for what they are worth? Where does the government get their money from? Joe Taxpayer in the main. I certainly would not want to be paying higher taxes and NI contributions at a time when I too am feeling the pinch and having to cut back on even essentials. I have worked for over 30 years and am just grateful that I have a job - and I get paid far less than junior doctors.

nj30

I really do not agree with the junior doctors striking. Not only are lives going to be placed at risk, the lengthy wait for operations and treatment is only going to worsen. Everyone would like better pay but this is often not realistic. The government should pay them for what they are worth? Where does the government get their money from? Joe Taxpayer in the main. I certainly would not want to be paying higher taxes and NI contributions at a time when I too am feeling the pinch and having to cut back on even essentials. I have worked for over 30 years and am just grateful that I have a job - and I get paid far less than junior doctors.

I have worked for over 30 years and am just grateful that I have a job - and I get paid far less than junior doctors.

Are you saying that doctors who've possibly had to train for 7 years - and even more if they specialise, incurring a large debt which has to be repaid in the process, should just be grateful that they have a job?

Perhaps you get paid less because you don't have the same expertise nor level of responsibility?

nj30 and Primrose53 and gn38 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻 I agree and bet many people do. Ignore any personal attacks saying you must be ‘angry’ or ‘bitter’ simply for recounting experiences and giving your opinion, seems to be the usual method on here for trying to rubbish any opposing views.
The junior doctors committee are encouraging their colleagues to stick out for huge pay rises which they cynically know they won’t get while patients suffer and die as a result.
Caring profession?
GN members with doctors in the family are up in arms about criticism but that criticism is deserved in this case in my and many others point of view.

Some posts on here make me sick.

I don't have doctors in the family.

Oreo

nj30 and Primrose53 and gn38 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻 I agree and bet many people do. Ignore any personal attacks saying you must be ‘angry’ or ‘bitter’ simply for recounting experiences and giving your opinion, seems to be the usual method on here for trying to rubbish any opposing views.
The junior doctors committee are encouraging their colleagues to stick out for huge pay rises which they cynically know they won’t get while patients suffer and die as a result.
Caring profession?
GN members with doctors in the family are up in arms about criticism but that criticism is deserved in this case in my and many others point of view.

Most people don’t agree with you Oreo, whether they have doctors in their family or not.
www.ipsos.com/en-uk/over-half-britons-support-junior-doctors-taking-strike-action