Why is Keir Starmer afraid to tell the truth about brexit?

Maizie you spoke too soon

Freya you missed the ‘or’ in my sentence, and the part that followed

I think the "not sure" just indicates how Starmer fails to appeal to many. He should be miles ahead and he isn't.

As the sort of voter the Labour Party needs to attract, I don't agree. The "not sure" usually happens at this point. He cannot go into too much detail or make too many promises. Some of the other "not sure" votes will not even be interested (politics is not their thing) until very close to an election, when all the policies are more detailed and concrete.

I also think Sunak and the Tory Press are doing a good job of offering things that are inevitable, even without his input. They also highlight policies he won't be able to achieve (as we are already seeing). This will also have more influence nearer to the election. It is probably 18 months away.

So far, I think Starmer has gathered a good and effective team around him. He has brought his party closer to the posibility of winning than anyone expected. Nothing, but nothing, can be achieved if a party is not in power.

Remember, I will vote for whichever party I believe will bring this country back to sanity, not selfishness. I will not vote Conservative with this motley crew in power. I may vote Green, LibDem or even Independant. My vote will not be swayed (other than negatively) based on the nasty infighting within any party.

If the Labour Party cannot hang together, they may find they lose and hang alone. Infighting should be for their members' meetings and conferences - not social media.

But, of course, I may be the only one who feels this way, and I may have got it all wrong. It is just one persons opinion, as is yours Glorianny.

FannyCornforth

They can’t risk spooking the red wall voters who stayed away from the polls or voted for Johnson under Corbyn’s leadership

I'm a red wall voter, certainly didn't stay away from the poll, why would they, when they could vote against Corbyn. Which I certainly did.

FannyCornforth

Thank you everyone for your comments about my comment! 😊
I don’t think that I’ve ever been so agreed with…
I feel like part of the N&P Gang now!
(NB ^not a clique^)

😄

FannyCornforth

Thank you everyone for your comments about my comment! 😊
I don’t think that I’ve ever been so agreed with…
I feel like part of the N&P Gang now!
(NB ^not a clique^)

Oooooh. We could arrange a falling out, FC 😂

Thank you everyone for your comments about my comment! 😊
I don’t think that I’ve ever been so agreed with…
I feel like part of the N&P Gang now!
(NB ^not a clique^)

DaisyAnne

Wow, you did stretch a single comment that related to your rather instructive way of posting Glorianny - nothing else.

How is Rishi Sunak doing with his promises, by the way? Now he is in a position to achieve something ... but it's not going very well, is it?

Actually, in the poll I was quoting, Sunak was ahead of Starmer but the "not sure" group were in the vast majority. I imagine this will bob up and down for a while yet.

I think the "not sure" just indicates how Starmer fails to appeal to many. He should be miles ahead and he isn't.

As regards Sunak lying, it is what I expect from a Tory politician. I don't expect it from a LP leader. Just as I don't expect undemocratic action and bullying. The LP was founded on democracy.

Wow, you did stretch a single comment that related to your rather instructive way of posting Glorianny - nothing else.

How is Rishi Sunak doing with his promises, by the way? Now he is in a position to achieve something ... but it's not going very well, is it?

Actually, in the poll I was quoting, Sunak was ahead of Starmer but the "not sure" group were in the vast majority. I imagine this will bob up and down for a while yet.

DaisyAnne

Glorianny

DaisyAnne

Glorianny

I've one it before but here goes again!(I'm beginning to feel like Cassandra)
1. He promised a radical party which would be united under his leadership. He has basically chucked out anyone on the left .
2. He promised to heal the party of anti-semitism. He has just thrown out left leaning Jews, so right wing Jewish organisations approve of him. (apparently Jews who think differently are "the wrong sort of Jew" and that isn't anti-semitic!!!)
3. He promised to keep borders open and support immigration only he doesn't think that now.
That'll do for a start.
But if your want a real laugh I suggest you go to his website and read his 10 pledges
keirstarmer.com/plans/10-pledges/
If you can find one he has kept to I'd love to know which.
He says he stands for human rights but disciplines an MP who said quite correctly Israel is an apartheid state (Amnesty agrees).
He says he wants to strengthen Trade Unions but won't support strikers.
He says he believes in the NHS but won't rule out privatisation.
It's really difficult to know what Labour policies he does believe in.

These don't sound like lies to me although I accept that is how you see them.

They sound like someone in the party who doesn't agree with the politics of the elected leader. Nothing more, nothing less. You are perfectly at liberty to do that, just as I, and others, are at liberty to think your views pretty extreme and ignore them when contemplating the possibility of Starmer winning the election and whether that's what we want.

It is often the extremists who drive others away from their party. You are doing a very good job in that direction. If I felt people holding your views were going to be able to take charge of the Labour party I would certainly not vote for them. I do not want to see my country in the hands of those on any extreme, ever again. I know I may not be able to stop them with one vote but hopefully others will have had enough of the extremists too.

I asked you to look at the pledges ad tell me one he has kept. I accept that you can't do that.
Since when did not keeping a pledge become just a difference in policies? If you promise to do something and don't do it unless you give an adequate reason why something prevented you from keeping that pledge you were in fact lying.
If Starmer can lie in order to become leader of the LP what might he do to become PM?

You really need to learn that you cannot instruct people in what they answer or you will keep upsetting yourself. Pledges have often changed with the knowledge of what may be possible; what you may be left with. If he has changed them this is hardly a first. I can't tell you how little it matters to me, but then I don't see this as lying; I see it as politics. Some things do matter but the in-fighting in the Labour Party, if this is what this is, is certainly not one of them.

So, as you feel aggrieved by these perceived "lies", who will you vote for in the next election? The right has outstripped Starmer in any form of lying.

Starmer is sensible enough to know he needs the centre votes to win the next election. No party, unless it's a single-issue election such as Johnson's, wins without the centre. So the Leader of the Labour Party is trying to ensure he appeals to the right people in the right places and, at the moment, that obviously isn't you.

As any phycologist would tell you, you cannot change how another human being behaves (although I think Starmer is better than many). The only thing you can do, for your own mental health, is to change your attitude towards that behaviour. Most people learn this much earlier in life than granny-time, and it is much easier to live with other human beings when you have.

Thanks for the advice DaisyAnne fortunately my mental health is fine. Having basic principles and believing in them is not in fact any indication of mental health problems. On the other hand if it is I'm happy to be considered mental. I may not be able to change the way Starmer behaves but I don't have to either accept or agree with it.
It is rather a strange post to begin by telling me I can't instruct anyone about how to answer something then to go on to tell me I have to accept things or there is something wrong with me.
I thought we were having an interesting discussion about a lying politician. But apparently it doesn't matter to you. Which makes me wonder why you posted in the first place.

Incidentally Starmer is only minimally more popular than Sunak, which is worrying. given the complete mess this country isin.

Ps I don't think he's afraid, but canny.

Wyllow3

MaizieD

FannyCornforth

I’d still prefer it if Starmer leaves Brexit well alone (for now).

It would give the Tories some fabulous ammunition and more excuses to bang the ‘will of the people’ / ‘leftie lawyer’ drum.

I just want Labour to get over the line.

As we all know, they are experts at grabbing defeat from the jaws of victory.

I agree with you, FC.

Me too.

We need to deal with Brexit problems once we get in - in the most effective ways possible, at the time it happens. Certainly sort out relationships with Single market and customs, and standards regulation that allow us to trade easily.

Me too.

MaizieD

FannyCornforth

I’d still prefer it if Starmer leaves Brexit well alone (for now).

It would give the Tories some fabulous ammunition and more excuses to bang the ‘will of the people’ / ‘leftie lawyer’ drum.

I just want Labour to get over the line.

As we all know, they are experts at grabbing defeat from the jaws of victory.

I agree with you, FC.

Me too.

We need to deal with Brexit problems once we get in - in the most effective ways possible, at the time it happens. Certainly sort out relationships with Single market and customs, and standards regulation that allow us to trade easily.

Granmarderby10

varian I am in total agreement with the author of the Guardian piece referring to the “ anti Sunak poster” ad campaign.

A grave mistake indeed for labour to go down this road.

Are they unaware of the effect this Yarboo behaviour and mindset is having right now as it plays out in USA

I do wonder sometimes if they (the shadow cabinet) really want to win an election; or just remain in perpetual opposition.

I think there were four or five of them Granmarderby10. How many did you actually see?

I certainly didn't see more than two in the news. Why? Because the news sources of mainly owned by overseas millionaires who are the Lickspittle of the Tory party. I'm not sure these were the best way to go, but I understand the reason for trying. It won't lose them the election; most people will see them and move on. A recent YouGov poll (one rather misquoted in the Telegraph) told us 67% of voters don't yet know which leader would make the best Prime Minister.

We have a long way to go yet, so twisted knickers are not yet a necessity.

Glorianny

DaisyAnne

Glorianny

I've one it before but here goes again!(I'm beginning to feel like Cassandra)
1. He promised a radical party which would be united under his leadership. He has basically chucked out anyone on the left .
2. He promised to heal the party of anti-semitism. He has just thrown out left leaning Jews, so right wing Jewish organisations approve of him. (apparently Jews who think differently are "the wrong sort of Jew" and that isn't anti-semitic!!!)
3. He promised to keep borders open and support immigration only he doesn't think that now.
That'll do for a start.
But if your want a real laugh I suggest you go to his website and read his 10 pledges
keirstarmer.com/plans/10-pledges/
If you can find one he has kept to I'd love to know which.
He says he stands for human rights but disciplines an MP who said quite correctly Israel is an apartheid state (Amnesty agrees).
He says he wants to strengthen Trade Unions but won't support strikers.
He says he believes in the NHS but won't rule out privatisation.
It's really difficult to know what Labour policies he does believe in.

These don't sound like lies to me although I accept that is how you see them.

They sound like someone in the party who doesn't agree with the politics of the elected leader. Nothing more, nothing less. You are perfectly at liberty to do that, just as I, and others, are at liberty to think your views pretty extreme and ignore them when contemplating the possibility of Starmer winning the election and whether that's what we want.

It is often the extremists who drive others away from their party. You are doing a very good job in that direction. If I felt people holding your views were going to be able to take charge of the Labour party I would certainly not vote for them. I do not want to see my country in the hands of those on any extreme, ever again. I know I may not be able to stop them with one vote but hopefully others will have had enough of the extremists too.

I asked you to look at the pledges ad tell me one he has kept. I accept that you can't do that.
Since when did not keeping a pledge become just a difference in policies? If you promise to do something and don't do it unless you give an adequate reason why something prevented you from keeping that pledge you were in fact lying.
If Starmer can lie in order to become leader of the LP what might he do to become PM?

You really need to learn that you cannot instruct people in what they answer or you will keep upsetting yourself. Pledges have often changed with the knowledge of what may be possible; what you may be left with. If he has changed them this is hardly a first. I can't tell you how little it matters to me, but then I don't see this as lying; I see it as politics. Some things do matter but the in-fighting in the Labour Party, if this is what this is, is certainly not one of them.

So, as you feel aggrieved by these perceived "lies", who will you vote for in the next election? The right has outstripped Starmer in any form of lying.

Starmer is sensible enough to know he needs the centre votes to win the next election. No party, unless it's a single-issue election such as Johnson's, wins without the centre. So the Leader of the Labour Party is trying to ensure he appeals to the right people in the right places and, at the moment, that obviously isn't you.

As any phycologist would tell you, you cannot change how another human being behaves (although I think Starmer is better than many). The only thing you can do, for your own mental health, is to change your attitude towards that behaviour. Most people learn this much earlier in life than granny-time, and it is much easier to live with other human beings when you have.

varian I am in total agreement with the author of the Guardian piece referring to the “ anti Sunak poster” ad campaign.

A grave mistake indeed for labour to go down this road.

Are they unaware of the effect this Yarboo behaviour and mindset is having right now as it plays out in USA

I do wonder sometimes if they (the shadow cabinet) really want to win an election; or just remain in perpetual opposition.

So here we are – with an economy suffering the cumulative effects of poor growth or absolute decline in real incomes – and along comes Brexit. And what does former remainer Keir Starmer do? He ignores the open goal of the government’s disaster and says “make Brexit work”.

Because he can’t change Brexit, he is stuck with it all he can do is make the best of it there is no chance whatever of reversing it. Maybe, just maybe he will join a customs union within the first parliament, any thought of rejoining the EU or even EFTA is pie in the sky. Maybe the next generation will see things differently, we are all going to be gone by then.

DaisyAnne

Glorianny

I've one it before but here goes again!(I'm beginning to feel like Cassandra)
1. He promised a radical party which would be united under his leadership. He has basically chucked out anyone on the left .
2. He promised to heal the party of anti-semitism. He has just thrown out left leaning Jews, so right wing Jewish organisations approve of him. (apparently Jews who think differently are "the wrong sort of Jew" and that isn't anti-semitic!!!)
3. He promised to keep borders open and support immigration only he doesn't think that now.
That'll do for a start.
But if your want a real laugh I suggest you go to his website and read his 10 pledges
keirstarmer.com/plans/10-pledges/
If you can find one he has kept to I'd love to know which.
He says he stands for human rights but disciplines an MP who said quite correctly Israel is an apartheid state (Amnesty agrees).
He says he wants to strengthen Trade Unions but won't support strikers.
He says he believes in the NHS but won't rule out privatisation.
It's really difficult to know what Labour policies he does believe in.

These don't sound like lies to me although I accept that is how you see them.

They sound like someone in the party who doesn't agree with the politics of the elected leader. Nothing more, nothing less. You are perfectly at liberty to do that, just as I, and others, are at liberty to think your views pretty extreme and ignore them when contemplating the possibility of Starmer winning the election and whether that's what we want.

It is often the extremists who drive others away from their party. You are doing a very good job in that direction. If I felt people holding your views were going to be able to take charge of the Labour party I would certainly not vote for them. I do not want to see my country in the hands of those on any extreme, ever again. I know I may not be able to stop them with one vote but hopefully others will have had enough of the extremists too.

I asked you to look at the pledges ad tell me one he has kept. I accept that you can't do that.
Since when did not keeping a pledge become just a difference in policies? If you promise to do something and don't do it unless you give an adequate reason why something prevented you from keeping that pledge you were in fact lying.
If Starmer can lie in order to become leader of the LP what might he do to become PM?

"So here we are – with an economy suffering the cumulative effects of poor growth or absolute decline in real incomes – and along comes Brexit. And what does former remainer Keir Starmer do? He ignores the open goal of the government’s disaster and says “make Brexit work”.

Now, according to a recent poll commissioned by the Constitutional Society, if Labour were to face facts and argue that Brexit was a mistake, its share of the vote would actually increase. As Prof Andrew Blick of King’s College London says: “The party seems to have drawn the conclusion that it cannot come back into power if it criticises Brexit. But this polling suggests it is mistaken.

I agree. This government does not deserve to be re-elected, but it seems to me that Sunak, with his point that Northern Ireland has been offered the best of both worlds, has most certainly got that message.

Indeed, by eschewing Brexit and resorting to a nasty – and stupid – anti-Sunak poster campaign, Starmer has been embarking on a diversion from the big issues which could seriously damage his chances. I fear that he is making a strategic mistake of historic proportions."

William Keegan

www.theguardian.com/business/2023/apr/16/brexit-caps-40-years-of-conservative-failure-that-starmer-fears-to-oppose

Glorianny

I've one it before but here goes again!(I'm beginning to feel like Cassandra)
1. He promised a radical party which would be united under his leadership. He has basically chucked out anyone on the left .
2. He promised to heal the party of anti-semitism. He has just thrown out left leaning Jews, so right wing Jewish organisations approve of him. (apparently Jews who think differently are "the wrong sort of Jew" and that isn't anti-semitic!!!)
3. He promised to keep borders open and support immigration only he doesn't think that now.
That'll do for a start.
But if your want a real laugh I suggest you go to his website and read his 10 pledges
keirstarmer.com/plans/10-pledges/
If you can find one he has kept to I'd love to know which.
He says he stands for human rights but disciplines an MP who said quite correctly Israel is an apartheid state (Amnesty agrees).
He says he wants to strengthen Trade Unions but won't support strikers.
He says he believes in the NHS but won't rule out privatisation.
It's really difficult to know what Labour policies he does believe in.

These don't sound like lies to me although I accept that is how you see them.

They sound like someone in the party who doesn't agree with the politics of the elected leader. Nothing more, nothing less. You are perfectly at liberty to do that, just as I, and others, are at liberty to think your views pretty extreme and ignore them when contemplating the possibility of Starmer winning the election and whether that's what we want.

It is often the extremists who drive others away from their party. You are doing a very good job in that direction. If I felt people holding your views were going to be able to take charge of the Labour party I would certainly not vote for them. I do not want to see my country in the hands of those on any extreme, ever again. I know I may not be able to stop them with one vote but hopefully others will have had enough of the extremists too.

Oops wrong thread.

Playing devils advocate if horse racing gets banned, what next, point-to-point, cross country, show jumping and then moving onto pony club events (extremely competitive parents).

Carriage driving, horses pulling funeral hearses, donkey rides at the beach…

This is so funny- Alexei Sayle and the slam poem "I hate Kier Starmer" www.youtube.com/watch?v=zx_l9o0i37c
Worth a watch if only for the description of Liz Truss

www.politico.eu/article/uk-labour-keir-starmer-post-brexit-take-back-control-bill-election/

"Starmer, who campaigned to stay in the EU and once pushed for a second Brexit referendum, used his first speech of 2023 to promise to “embrace” the Brexiteer message pushed by ex-Prime Minister Boris Johnson"

.https://www.politico.eu/article/uk-labour-keir-starmer-post-brexit-take-back-control-bill-election/