Why is Keir Starmer afraid to tell the truth about brexit?

Galaxy

Have you seen the polls varian?

I have seen the polls which indicate that Labour is very likely to win the next election, and would be even more likely to win without supporting brexit.

I have also seen many posts on Gransnet from Labour supporters who are critical of Starmer.

Unfortunately we do not live in a democracy. FPTP favours a two party system and the only way other voices can be properly heard is for people to vote tactically - which often means voting against the party you hate the most rather than for the party you'd like to win.

I will vote Liberal Democrat for two reasons - it is the party which best represents my views and it is the only party which can beat the Tories in my constituency.

If I lived elsewhere I might vote Labour - in spite of my doubts about Keir Starmer. If I was in Brighton I'd vote Green.

varian

toscalily

varian
Perhaps what I should have said is that regarding Brexit there is likely to be the Tories version of the truth, Labours version of the truth and also Keir Starmers version of the truth. Whether you believe any or none of them it will depend on your own point of view. As for your request quoting figures which support some "alternative truth" where would I find that and why would I bother.

If you've no idea where to find figures which support some "alternative truth", toscalily, it may be because no reliable figures can prove something which is patently untrue - such as saying that brexit has not damaged our economy.

That is the difference between truth and lies. If you state something which most people believe to be untrue you should be prepared to be challenged.

You would not get away with stating that the Moon is made of green cheese or the Earth is flat, because these statements are patently untrue - and it is untrue that brexit has been a good thing, as anyone who cares to look at the evidence can see.

When did Starmer say "Brexit has not damaged our economy", varian. I haven't seen that.

Have you seen the polls varian?

Keir Starmer seems to have lost the respect of a lot of Labour supporters.

I understand that you are frustrated with not getting what you want varian. That doesn't mean that Starmer is afraid to "tell the truth (your truth) about Brexit*. He is doing what he thinks is right for the his party just as you are doing what you think is right for you.

I imagine that he has come to terms by now with not having your respect.

toscalily

varian
Perhaps what I should have said is that regarding Brexit there is likely to be the Tories version of the truth, Labours version of the truth and also Keir Starmers version of the truth. Whether you believe any or none of them it will depend on your own point of view. As for your request quoting figures which support some "alternative truth" where would I find that and why would I bother.

If you've no idea where to find figures which support some "alternative truth", toscalily, it may be because no reliable figures can prove something which is patently untrue - such as saying that brexit has not damaged our economy.

That is the difference between truth and lies. If you state something which most people believe to be untrue you should be prepared to be challenged.

You would not get away with stating that the Moon is made of green cheese or the Earth is flat, because these statements are patently untrue - and it is untrue that brexit has been a good thing, as anyone who cares to look at the evidence can see.

I've one it before but here goes again!(I'm beginning to feel like Cassandra)
1. He promised a radical party which would be united under his leadership. He has basically chucked out anyone on the left .
2. He promised to heal the party of anti-semitism. He has just thrown out left leaning Jews, so right wing Jewish organisations approve of him. (apparently Jews who think differently are "the wrong sort of Jew" and that isn't anti-semitic!!!)
3. He promised to keep borders open and support immigration only he doesn't think that now.
That'll do for a start.
But if your want a real laugh I suggest you go to his website and read his 10 pledges
keirstarmer.com/plans/10-pledges/
If you can find one he has kept to I'd love to know which.
He says he stands for human rights but disciplines an MP who said quite correctly Israel is an apartheid state (Amnesty agrees).
He says he wants to strengthen Trade Unions but won't support strikers.
He says he believes in the NHS but won't rule out privatisation.
It's really difficult to know what Labour policies he does believe in.

I think that at this stage there can be no harm in Starmer and the opposition front bench now stating that they think Brexit was a mistake, as does the majority of the population. He does not need to say if and when the UK can rejoin the EU, merely that a Labour govt would first aim to strengthen trading relationships (probably the most important thing right now) and gradually deal with other topics. If we are to have a united country again he will need to deal gently with the remaining Brexiteers in order to try to get them on board.

Glorianny

DaisyAnne

Glorianny

Keir Starmer finds it hard to tell the truth about anything.

So where has he lied?

This is the problem with headlines like this. They are put on by people with an axe to grind.

Starmer is the leader of the Labour Party; Varian is a member (I believe) of the Lib Dems. This is a party conflict. It helps no one. It is extreme and will not allow the country to reach a reasoned conclusion.

We do not vote for 'exactly' the government we want. In 2020 there were 47.6 million Parliamentary electoral registrations in the UK. An individual cannot have their own government; there has to be some compromise. If you think he got something wrong, say so, but remember, he may not want what you want - that's allowed. That does not mean he is not telling the truth - he is just not saying what you want him to say. It does not mean he is lying - he is just not saying what you want him to say and he is allowed not to agree with you and to offer all those other than you and the OP an insight into what he does stand for.

Democracy is for grown-ups. Nobody ever said it was perfect. We live in a democracy, and the alternative is a lot worse.

*Daisy Anne*there are three examples of his lies, or his duplicity, whatever you want to call it, further up this thread. There are many others if you look.
It is so funny. It doesn't seem five minutes since people were asking exactly the same thing about Boris, and implying we made it all up. And look where that got us!

To stop us getting at cross-purposes, how about briefly listing these "lies".

FannyCornforth

I’d still prefer it if Starmer leaves Brexit well alone (for now).

It would give the Tories some fabulous ammunition and more excuses to bang the ‘will of the people’ / ‘leftie lawyer’ drum.

I just want Labour to get over the line.

As we all know, they are experts at grabbing defeat from the jaws of victory.

I agree Fanny. It is his job to get this appalling government out and that has to be his first priority. He can do nothing to even bring us to a sane footing with the EU unless he has the power to do so.

He has a team studying all the polls and commissioning their own. I think he probably has more information than a member of GN.

varian
Perhaps what I should have said is that regarding Brexit there is likely to be the Tories version of the truth, Labours version of the truth and also Keir Starmers version of the truth. Whether you believe any or none of them it will depend on your own point of view. As for your request quoting figures which support some "alternative truth" where would I find that and why would I bother.

Glorianny

DaisyAnne

Glorianny

Keir Starmer finds it hard to tell the truth about anything.

So where has he lied?

This is the problem with headlines like this. They are put on by people with an axe to grind.

Starmer is the leader of the Labour Party; Varian is a member (I believe) of the Lib Dems. This is a party conflict. It helps no one. It is extreme and will not allow the country to reach a reasoned conclusion.

We do not vote for 'exactly' the government we want. In 2020 there were 47.6 million Parliamentary electoral registrations in the UK. An individual cannot have their own government; there has to be some compromise. If you think he got something wrong, say so, but remember, he may not want what you want - that's allowed. That does not mean he is not telling the truth - he is just not saying what you want him to say. It does not mean he is lying - he is just not saying what you want him to say and he is allowed not to agree with you and to offer all those other than you and the OP an insight into what he does stand for.

Democracy is for grown-ups. Nobody ever said it was perfect. We live in a democracy, and the alternative is a lot worse.

*Daisy Anne*there are three examples of his lies, or his duplicity, whatever you want to call it, further up this thread. There are many others if you look.
It is so funny. It doesn't seem five minutes since people were asking exactly the same thing about Boris, and implying we made it all up. And look where that got us!

Who are you going to vote for - presumably Sunak?

FannyCornforth

I’d still prefer it if Starmer leaves Brexit well alone (for now).

It would give the Tories some fabulous ammunition and more excuses to bang the ‘will of the people’ / ‘leftie lawyer’ drum.

I just want Labour to get over the line.

As we all know, they are experts at grabbing defeat from the jaws of victory.

Yes.

However, I am not uncritical of Labour Party policies, but I do think that the absolute first, second and third priority is to get rid of a government that is destroying our democracy, corrupt and incompetent.

To do this nothing must be put into the laps of the head bangers or right wing press as a gift to whip the opposition leader.

Telling the “truth” therefore would be doing just that and as someone said Labour is very good at snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

Steady as we go

DaisyAnne

Glorianny

Keir Starmer finds it hard to tell the truth about anything.

So where has he lied?

This is the problem with headlines like this. They are put on by people with an axe to grind.

Starmer is the leader of the Labour Party; Varian is a member (I believe) of the Lib Dems. This is a party conflict. It helps no one. It is extreme and will not allow the country to reach a reasoned conclusion.

We do not vote for 'exactly' the government we want. In 2020 there were 47.6 million Parliamentary electoral registrations in the UK. An individual cannot have their own government; there has to be some compromise. If you think he got something wrong, say so, but remember, he may not want what you want - that's allowed. That does not mean he is not telling the truth - he is just not saying what you want him to say. It does not mean he is lying - he is just not saying what you want him to say and he is allowed not to agree with you and to offer all those other than you and the OP an insight into what he does stand for.

Democracy is for grown-ups. Nobody ever said it was perfect. We live in a democracy, and the alternative is a lot worse.

*Daisy Anne*there are three examples of his lies, or his duplicity, whatever you want to call it, further up this thread. There are many others if you look.
It is so funny. It doesn't seem five minutes since people were asking exactly the same thing about Boris, and implying we made it all up. And look where that got us!

I am a member of the LibDems, DaisyAnne

This is not a party conflict and certainly not extreme.

I hope that the country will reach a reasoned conclusion - but that depends on voters being told the truth.

I am frustrated that Starmer won't do that.

Ed Davey and the LibDems are not afraid to inform voters of the fact that what was, in 2016 mocked as "Project Fear" has turned out to be absolutely true.

Obviously I want to see the end of this brexitory government and would hope that Keir Starmer becomes PM.

He is more likely to win if he stands up to the right wing media, remembers that most of his supporters never wanted brexit and tell the truth about what damage has been done.

That would gain him respect.

There are plenty of videos out there says one thing and then the exact opposite so he is a proven liar.
We don't have a democracy as we have an unelected hereditary Head of State from one family.

Glorianny

Keir Starmer finds it hard to tell the truth about anything.

So where has he lied?

This is the problem with headlines like this. They are put on by people with an axe to grind.

Starmer is the leader of the Labour Party; Varian is a member (I believe) of the Lib Dems. This is a party conflict. It helps no one. It is extreme and will not allow the country to reach a reasoned conclusion.

We do not vote for 'exactly' the government we want. In 2020 there were 47.6 million Parliamentary electoral registrations in the UK. An individual cannot have their own government; there has to be some compromise. If you think he got something wrong, say so, but remember, he may not want what you want - that's allowed. That does not mean he is not telling the truth - he is just not saying what you want him to say. It does not mean he is lying - he is just not saying what you want him to say and he is allowed not to agree with you and to offer all those other than you and the OP an insight into what he does stand for.

Democracy is for grown-ups. Nobody ever said it was perfect. We live in a democracy, and the alternative is a lot worse.

Katie59

Starmer does not want to alienate any Labour voter that do vote for Brexit, it is a fact of life his opinion does not matter. If he is elected then he has to deal with it as best he can, it is up to the parliament of the day to agree or disagree with that.

He quite likely won’t get a large working majority so getting major changes won’t be easy.

True
Nobody knows if he’ll be a good PM until he’s in place but at least there’ll be a Labour government in power.He seems ok to me.I like Rachel Reeves and Wes Streeting too.

toscalily

*Why is Keir Starmer afraid to tell the truth about brexit?*
Whose truth would that be, Tories, Labours or Keir Starmers?

Do you not believe that there is such a thing as the truth?

It is true that the pound has dropped in value compared to the Euro and the US dollar. www.statista.com/statistics/1034391/monthly-exchange-rate-gbp-eur-worldwide/

It is true that the real GDP % change in the UK in the three years to the end of 2022 is negative. The UK is the only G7 economy which has not returned to pre-pandemic levels. Real growth in US is +5%, in Eurozone +2.4%, in the UK -0.6%
commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn02784/

The total trade in goods and services deficit widened by £3.5 billion to £27.6 billion in the three months to January 2023, as exports fell by more than imports.
www.ons.gov.uk/economy/nationalaccounts/balanceofpayments/bulletins/uktrade/january2023#:~:text=The%20value%20of%20goods%20exports,%C2%A30.3%20billion%20(1.0%25).

These are just three of the true measurable effects of brexit on our economy, They are all from reliable sources - and show a negative effect. In other words, it is demonstrably true that brexit has damaged the UK economy.

It would be easy to quote more analyses all showing that brexit is a disaster.

Can you quote figures which support some "alternative truth" toscalily?

I liked Corbyn too

pascal30

Glorianny

Thanks Grany I am upset that the Labour leader who will possibly be handed the next election on a plate is such a man.
I don't understand why Corbyn, who was basically honest, but whose beliefs were not approved of, was castigated by the media, whilst Starmer's broken promises and lies are completely ignored. It makes me very suspicious.

I much preferred Corbyn but thegeneral public have never really liked someone on the left, hence Brexit

That's true. But all I can compare Starmer's lack of press condemnation with really is how Boris was treated. Many of us knew that he was a liar and unprincipled, but the press ignored that. They now seem to be doing the same to Starmer. So will we end up with another unprincipled, lying, power-hungry PM?

I agree with FC too. I think a Labour government would gradually align regulations with the EU, reduce the blocks to trade and movement that the Conservatives have introduced and build relationships. When that is done there may be room for some sort of "outer circle" arrangement.

Glorianny

Thanks Grany I am upset that the Labour leader who will possibly be handed the next election on a plate is such a man.
I don't understand why Corbyn, who was basically honest, but whose beliefs were not approved of, was castigated by the media, whilst Starmer's broken promises and lies are completely ignored. It makes me very suspicious.

I much preferred Corbyn but thegeneral public have never really liked someone on the left, hence Brexit

FannyCornforth

I’d still prefer it if Starmer leaves Brexit well alone (for now).

It would give the Tories some fabulous ammunition and more excuses to bang the ‘will of the people’ / ‘leftie lawyer’ drum.

I just want Labour to get over the line.

As we all know, they are experts at grabbing defeat from the jaws of victory.

I agree with you, FC.

Thanks Grany I am upset that the Labour leader who will possibly be handed the next election on a plate is such a man.
I don't understand why Corbyn, who was basically honest, but whose beliefs were not approved of, was castigated by the media, whilst Starmer's broken promises and lies are completely ignored. It makes me very suspicious.