Identifying as a different gender

If you need to inspect what's in people's underwear Oreo, good luck with that lol

I think that it’s necessary to know in womens sports, in hospital wards, in changing rooms, in refuges and so on.
It’s not a matter for lol btw.

Yes ots necessary in certain situations for the benift of women and trans people which I have explained at length Oreo

But the rest of the time it's no one's business

In fact it is no one's business most of the time unless you are a doctor or running a refuge or organising a sport

If we just encourage trans people to identify as trans for the purpose of their own medical needs, sports, safe spaces etc and adhere to the equality act that protects safe spaces.. it never has to be anyone's business ever again

I wish people would read posts and respond to what is written and not something they want to argue with.

The woman had to apologise after her class complained over her saying "good afternoon, girls" at the start of a lesson, according to the Mail on Sunday.
Pupils told her that "not everyone here identifies as female".
The following day, she arrived in the classroom to see they had all put their names and preferred pronouns on the board, including one person who used they/them.
There was also a lunchtime protest after she refused to acknowledge their demands.
So hardly just about the word "girls"

You are doing it again! I didn’t say it was just about the word ‘girls’. I said that it wasn’t about pronouns but about the noun ‘girls’ - a different thing altogether. The debacle seems to have started with the word ’girls’ being objected to, but the rest of it - the pronouns on the board, the assembly etc followed on because of the way it was handled - as far as we can tell. Please stop misquoting me and twisting my words. I don’t do it to people, and really don’t like it done to me.

VioletSky

So what?

Who cares anyway
I like nice people, don't care what is their pants

In a "casual" venue - rubbing shoulders over a cup of coffee, it might not matter at all what's "in their pants".

But in an enclosed intimate environment, especially those catering for vulnerable women, it would matter.

Am I speaking Greek?

What's this weird obsession with ignoring what I've actually said and then throwing ideas at me as if I haven't said them

In some circles I'd call that scapegoating

If this is becoming another DARVOesque ignore everything someone says except the bits that people can use to have a jolly old row over thread

Then I shall be off

VioletSky

Am I speaking Greek?

What's this weird obsession with ignoring what I've actually said and then throwing ideas at me as if I haven't said them

In some circles I'd call that scapegoating

I'm beginning to think you don't quite follow the nature of debate.

A debate or discussion allows for all kinds of views to be expressed and reflected upon. All good unless the poster is known to hold gender critical views, at which point, their views are just wrong

I still try to engage politely in these threads

I don't dislike people because of their views or their beliefs, who has the energy to dislike people for not agreeing with them?

But it is frustrating when people misrepresent you and I do give up on those discussions because it's a form of lying

VioletSky

I still try to engage politely in these threads

I don't dislike people because of their views or their beliefs, who has the energy to dislike people for not agreeing with them?

But it is frustrating when people misrepresent you and I do give up on those discussions because it's a form of lying

But it is frustrating when people misrepresent you and I do give up on those discussions because it's a form of lying

Did I misrepresent you VS?

I took your observation at face-value. You like nice people and don't care what's in their pants. My initial comment agreed in principle with yours.

Then I pointed out a scenario where it might matter, and that was it. It was simply my observation, it didn't imply anything about you or what you may or may not think.

So, how have I misrepresented you?

Sorry, I can see I've over reacted Dickens

The thread was already turning into another row (not to do with you) and it frustrates me how bad the communication gets

Not everyone will agree with me, and some of those people will be trans but
I do think we need the trans distinction in certain situations for the benefit of women and trans people.

I think it would resolve many situations

But when it comes to daily life, what is in other people's pants is no one's business. Not least because other women are actually getting bullied as trans when they are not in toilets and changing spaces. It's happening more and more frequently and when you think about it, bullying in toilets and changing areas for not looking feminine enough, actually has roots in sexism

I think that if there is an increase in bullying in toilets and changing areas, it will have more to do with concerns about trans women who are intact males, accessing those spaces rather than being rooted in sexism.

Well yes Smileless you have actually highlighted the real issue "trans"

But women are being attacked for looking "masculine" by those who do not
want trans people in womans spaces. This is based on them not conforming to "gender norms" despite being women The same gender norms that we hear on these threads people would like removed.

Which means the women who are attacking other women who are not trans are unaware of their own sexism

Please forgive the long post.

The pants are not the basic seat of whether someone is male or female, and in any case, surgery can change what is visible and obvious. It looks as though a lot of people missed an important part of the sex education lessons at school - maybe they were dreaming of field trials with their favourite study partner.

Every single cell of every organ or process in the human body contains all their DNA, with one exception. That exception (actually two exceptions, one in the female, one in the male) creates new individuals.

The double twisted chains of DNA reproduce themselves for growth and replacement of cells by all untwisting, separating into two groups at either end of each cell, and there reconstructing the missing halves of themselves and retwisting with them into perfect copies of the original. Think two-ply wool where each ply is a different colour, but if untwisted each can create a strand of the other colour to twist with.

The exceptions are the cells produced in the ovary or testes. (the eggs in a female, the sperm in a male) these do not replace the missing half with a copy of what was there originally They are still incomplete.

So each only has half of the instruction manual - a sperm cell has to meet up with an egg cell and fuse with it for them to have all the info to copy, divide and copy divide again, and differentiate to make a fetus and in due course a baby.

The egg cell half-DNA that came from the mother has an X chromosome, whichever half it is, (as she inherited two, either one from her mother, or one from her father), but those from the father have either a Y (from his father) or an X (from his mother)

The bottom line is that the evolutionary purpose of male and female versions of human beings is reproduction. Without those differences, there would be no human race. It would have been "Hi Eve, I'm Adam" and then no more. This is not an airy-fairy philosophical theory about the importance of being of one sex or the other to the psyche of the individual, or a religious conviction that "God made it so and we shouldn't meddle". It is a basic requirement for the very existence, not only of the whole human race, but also of those individuals who feel themselves to be nearer the persona of the opposite sex than to the one they were born into.

Whatever someone does to alter their external sexual organs or their internal hormones, their appearance, their voice, their interests, attitudes, occupations, everything, their unchangeable sex is in whether they produce large gametes (eggs) or small gametes (sperm) ( or whether they would do so if a problem/fault didn't exist in the development of the organs that do that production.)

This is why a lot of people who have no beef with anyone preferring to look, act, think, feel and generally be considered to be of the other sex still insist in saying that trans people are welcome to live as they want - and wish them a happy and fulfilled life - but they are still the male or the female human that they were conceived as.

I don't agree that these are women unaware of their own sexism. It makes perfect sense to me that some women who see others who look masculine are reacting because they fear that they may in fact be men.

This wouldn't have become an issue if it wasn't known that some men, regardless of how many, have accessed women's safe spaces wearing 'women's' clothes and identifying as women.

Great post Elegran.

I’ll try again. This is not having a go at you VS, but it is what I see happening over and over on these threads.

You don’t read what people say- you react to a small part of it, often in a manner which is out of context and suggests that you haven’t fully grasped what has been said (eg Oreo’s comment about what is in people’s pants). Your reaction is indignant and prompts the poster to reply (particularly as you often add ‘lol’ which suggests you are laughing at them or their concerns). If their reply is (understandably) terse you get upset, and if they patiently explain what they said, as opposed to what you misinterpreted, you get annoyed as you have already said something similar many posts upthread.

From what I understand, you believe that transwomen should be banned from women’s safe spaces because we can’t tell whether or not they are actually predatory men? You do not believe that men should be allowed to compete against women in sport? You do not, however, feel that transpeople should suffer discrimination or prejudice in daily life?
As far as I can see, there is no difference there between your views and those of the posters you repeatedly argue with.

What does differ is that I think you believe that TWAW and approve of changes to the language to make it more difficult to differentiate between men and women? This is the rub - but I would see it as simply an ideological difference except that it complicates any attempts to allow women spaces of their own,

On the whole, though, there seems to be little difference between your views and others, yet you set yourself against people every time. I have seen so many people dip into these threads obviously hoping to be a ‘voice of reason’ but soon become antagonistic themselves because their words are used against them and you have painted yourself as a victim. You are not a scapegoat - you are the one who argues in circles, so that even those who start off agreeing with you end up being told they are picking on you.

I don’t really expect you to take this as it is meant, although I hope you do; but please try to understand that so much of your angst on these threads is unnecessary. I am not saying that my posts are right and yours are wrong, but that a lot of what you see as yourself as victim is not based on what is written.

Smileless2012

I think that if there is an increase in bullying in toilets and changing areas, it will have more to do with concerns about trans women who are intact males, accessing those spaces rather than being rooted in sexism.

Transwomen's crime rates, particularly for violent crime (ie, personal and sexual attacks and rapes) are almost exactly the same as male men. The likelihood of a transwoman with complete genitalia in a changing room being a peeping Tomasina or taking mental notes on who would be a great person to follow home is almost exactly the same as if they were a male man. The vast majority of transwomen would not be there for those purposes, just as the vast majority of men would not, but the exceptions are still a danger to women.

But intersex people do not have 1 or the other Elegran it's a little more complicated. Scientists have already found 21 differences in 17 genes in trans people. Fetuses are washed with different hormones at different stages of development and sometimes that goes wrong too. So you can see its a lot more complex than XX and XY and there are many different parts of this process that we still need to understand.

I can see you don't understand the issue Smileless but I'm not OK with women being harassed for the way they look, it's not acceptable and perpetuates stereotypes of what women should look like and should wear in order to be acceptable to other women

Trans women themselves are rarely attacked in women's bathrooms. It's women who are paying the price for other women's fears

Besides, we do not actually know how many trans people there are in this country, so statistics are not sound. Statistics also include men masquerading as women...

Those Statistics have no solid foundation I'm afraid and perpetuate fear that leads to harm to women

VS You posted that you have recently been diagnosed as autistic. Can you shift your view of youself as a victim a bit sideways, and see yourself instead as someone who interprets other people's comments through a filter influenced by your autism? That may explain to you your perception of your interactions, though it won't alter the alienation that people feel when you accuse them of bullying when that was not what they were doing.

It’s difficult not to conclude that you see yourself as an expert on all things trans Violet. You dismiss any posters taking a view different to yours as simply ill informed or bigoted.

As Elegran reminds us, trans women are as likely to be predatory as men.

TIM who do not demonstrate that they are male have possibly been in female toilets for a while.
If that is true, they would go in, use a cubicle, flush the toilet, wash their hands and leave, taking care that their maleness went unnoticed.
So why did the problem arise?
Who caused the problems?