Identifying as a different gender

Doodledog

*What you actually said was It seems odd to me that an all-girls school would be so single-minded about so-called 'gender' though - if it's perceived as a choice, why not go co-ed and be done with it*
Yes, which is not what you said upthread.

Perhaps because the school, unlike so many on GN recognises the difference between sex and gender
Does anyone on GN not recognise that difference? More twisting going on, I think.

and affords the girls it chooses to teach the right to choose their pronouns. It also recognises that the choice is not simply him or her.
This wasn't about pronouns, but about the use of the word 'girls'. All the same, this has nothing to do with what I said.

As I said restricting choice is just that, restriction. Whatever spin you may choose to put on it.
No spin here - you're the one twisting things. I did agree with you about the ethos maybe not being a good fit for the teacher - if that is the case, which we don't know.

I wish people would read the links which give the real story and not rely on inaccurate generalisations
The article says
The woman had to apologise after her class complained over her saying "good afternoon, girls" at the start of a lesson, according to the Mail on Sunday.

Pupils told her that "not everyone here identifies as female".
The following day, she arrived in the classroom to see they had all put their names and preferred pronouns on the board, including one person who used they/them.
There was also a lunchtime protest after she refused to acknowledge their demands.
So hardly just about the word "girls"

What you actually said was It seems odd to me that an all-girls school would be so single-minded about so-called 'gender' though - if it's perceived as a choice, why not go co-ed and be done with it
Yes, which is not what you said upthread.

Perhaps because the school, unlike so many on GN recognises the difference between sex and gender
Does anyone on GN not recognise that difference? More twisting going on, I think.

and affords the girls it chooses to teach the right to choose their pronouns. It also recognises that the choice is not simply him or her.
This wasn't about pronouns, but about the use of the word 'girls'. All the same, this has nothing to do with what I said.

As I said restricting choice is just that, restriction. Whatever spin you may choose to put on it.
No spin here - you're the one twisting things. I did agree with you about the ethos maybe not being a good fit for the teacher - if that is the case, which we don't know.

Daddima

I just saw this on Tik Tok

vm.tiktok.com/ZGJmfWrVK/

This is the perspective I come accross often when talking in LGBT circles

That trans distinction keeps everything fair, it protects everyone's rights and it makes things simpler.

Trans people need medical care for their phsyiology, they need to be able to date without putting themselves at risk, they need to be able to participate in sports fairly and all sorts of things really

Women need stuff too but everyone here already knows that

I have never really seen the point of a gender recognition certificate, what I see benefit in is keeping their protected characteristics, access to good medical care and the rest of us just treating them with kindness and respect

But I blame those who won't accept them as trans women for being a direct cause of why we are getting it all so wrong and why organisations and leadership are failing to address issues

Doodledog

*So your view is that only people who accept the pronoun "she" are entitled to single sex education? Things really do get more and more restrictive once you start, don't they?*

Please show me where I said that, or anything approaching that. I simply said that a school who segregates by sex doesn't seem an obvious contender for a wokery award. Which I think is true, although you are, of course, at liberty to disagree. Just please don't twist my words to say something they didn't.

What you actually said was It seems odd to me that an all-girls school would be so single-minded about so-called 'gender' though - if it's perceived as a choice, why not go co-ed and be done with it

Perhaps because the school, unlike so many on GN recognises the difference between sex and gender and affords the girls it chooses to teach the right to choose their pronouns.
It also recognises that the choice is not simply him or her.
As I said restricting choice is just that, restriction.
Whatever spin you may choose to put on it.

So your view is that only people who accept the pronoun "she" are entitled to single sex education? Things really do get more and more restrictive once you start, don't they?

Please show me where I said that, or anything approaching that. I simply said that a school who segregates by sex doesn't seem an obvious contender for a wokery award. Which I think is true, although you are, of course, at liberty to disagree. Just please don't twist my words to say something they didn't.

I just saw this on Tik Tok

vm.tiktok.com/ZGJmfWrVK/

My friend recently said that a school tour she attended with her daughter, it was made very clear that the school had LGBTQ friendly ethos and that some emphasis was put on trans inclusion.

She doesn't really get it all but I'm working on her

When I was able to explain that, the only thing being asked of students was just inclusive language and anti bullying, not some sort of trans indoctrination, she was fine with it

Smileless2012

Maybe the teacher would have been more open if those concerned had spoken to her, rather than writing their names and chosen pronouns on the board.

Was it their right to choose their pronouns that she refused to acknowledge, or the fact that they'd been written on the board for her to see and be made aware of, possibly for the first time?

Maybe they felt empowered to be less than respectful because the head had stood with her when she made her apology, giving the impression that rather than being a teacher, she was a naughty school girl.

Doesn't really matter though does it? It seems glaringly obvious that the teacher didn't fit the school's requirements, which makes you wonder why she would want to work there.

doodledog

Maybe consider which comments I am responding too and whether those comments are trying to bring in bones of contention from previous threads

I'm genuinely not trying to do that myself

But apart from that, I didn't think we were arguing but I'm not neirotypical and I tend to agree by putting things in my own words to help my own understanding

I'm autistic, I was officially diagnosed recently, that's just how I communicate

That was in response to Glorianny.

Of course we are all blaming predatory men Doodledog and if a predatory male identifies as a woman for the sole purpose of accessing female safe spaces, it is one too many.

Maybe the teacher would have been more open if those concerned had spoken to her, rather than writing their names and chosen pronouns on the board.

Was it their right to choose their pronouns that she refused to acknowledge, or the fact that they'd been written on the board for her to see and be made aware of, possibly for the first time?

Maybe they felt empowered to be less than respectful because the head had stood with her when she made her apology, giving the impression that rather than being a teacher, she was a naughty school girl.

VioletSky

I thought my comments were clear enough when I typed them

I do not blame trans people for this I blame predatory men

So no that's not what is meant or I would not have to keep addressing the idea that trans people should be publicly condemning the behaviour of predatory men because someone perceives them to be the same group

That perception is where discrimination comes in

Does that make sense now?

But I don't think anyone is blaming transpeople - we are all blaming predatory men, some of whom are, or pretend to be trans in order to gain access to victims.

I'm not sure where you disagree with the majority on this one, although you keep coming back to it as though your view is at odds. It often feels as though you are using a different definition of 'the behaviour of some reflects on others' from the rest of us.

We are not saying that because one transperson may be a predator then they might all be. We are saying that because it is impossible to tell who is and who is not dangerous, it is important to let women keep our spaces, which seems to be what you are saying, too?

Doodledog

*If you read the article linked to on page 1 of this thread the school has "diversity and inclusion prefects" and an assembly was given by them and older girls on gender and pronouns. It sounds as if the school is quite "woke"and the teacher wasn't. If you don't agree with the philosophy and ethos of a school it's difficult to understand why you would want to work there.*

Careful, volver will be along soon to complain about you leaping to conclusions. Or maybe not.

If you're right, it's a fair point though. The fact that it's a private school means that it can operate within an ethos of its own. It seems odd to me that an all-girls school would be so single-minded about so-called 'gender' though - if it's perceived as a choice, why not go co-ed and be done with it. But we don't know about that side of things, any more than we know about whether the teacher made a mistake or even knew about the child's assumed identity.

VS I'm still bewildered about gender-based communication and how it could be 'done away with', and how doing so would impact on dating or dysphoria.

But the subsequent events with the teacher finding the pupils had written. their names and chosen pronouns on the board and the teacher refusing to acknowledge their right to do so shows a conflict of opinions.
So your view is that only people who accept the pronoun "she" are entitled to single sex education? Things really do get more and more restrictive once you start, don't they?

I'm not saying that trans people cannot be predatory

We cannot say women cannot be predatory either which is one of the more painful realisations in life

But the situations that have occurred so far, look like men who have never displayed any gender dysphoria and never claimed any until it suited

I thought my comments were clear enough when I typed them

I do not blame trans people for this I blame predatory men

So no that's not what is meant or I would not have to keep addressing the idea that trans people should be publicly condemning the behaviour of predatory men because someone perceives them to be the same group

That perception is where discrimination comes in

Does that make sense now?

VioletSky

It was hypothetical doodledog

So it isn't of importance and safely ignored

I was just trying to understand what you meant, so I wasn't accused of ignoring points.

Your position on not wanting transpeople in women's spaces does seem to contradict your fury at the idea that the behaviour of some reflects on others. As has been repeatedly said, nobody thinks that all transpeople would take advantage of being allowed to self-id into women's spaces, but the fact that some would means that they are all assumed to be dangerous.

That is all that is meant by 'the behaviour of some reflects on others'.

It was hypothetical doodledog

So it isn't of importance and safely ignored

Not that safe spaces would have prevented any of my issues at all but that's not the point of the comment

grannydarkhair

VioletSky Re. your post at 15:23:46 - Or, as First Minister Humza Yousaf recently said about Adam Graham/Isla Bryson, they may just be “at it”.

Yup

As a woman who has experienced the dangers of predatory men since childhood sadly...

I blame the predatory men predominantly but I always have and always will acknowledge that while those men exist and (sometimes the women who support them) we need our safe spaces and we need them to be safeguarded against predatory men.

As much as I empathise with the plight of transpeople, and as much I am angry that they would ever be put in this situation, I cannot in good conscience take away women's safe spaces. I can only ask that in those (thankfully few) situations we allow trans people safe spaces too as they face the same dangers we do from those who would harm them.

I hope one day we will not have to do this. I feel encouraged by how many more men are feminist compared to when I was younger

If you read the article linked to on page 1 of this thread the school has "diversity and inclusion prefects" and an assembly was given by them and older girls on gender and pronouns. It sounds as if the school is quite "woke"and the teacher wasn't. If you don't agree with the philosophy and ethos of a school it's difficult to understand why you would want to work there.

Careful, volver will be along soon to complain about you leaping to conclusions. Or maybe not.

If you're right, it's a fair point though. The fact that it's a private school means that it can operate within an ethos of its own. It seems odd to me that an all-girls school would be so single-minded about so-called 'gender' though - if it's perceived as a choice, why not go co-ed and be done with it. But we don't know about that side of things, any more than we know about whether the teacher made a mistake or even knew about the child's assumed identity.

VS I'm still bewildered about gender-based communication and how it could be 'done away with', and how doing so would impact on dating or dysphoria.

Yes I saw that Glorianny but am still no closer to knowing if all teachers had been advised not to refer to a classroom full or a group of students as girls.

There's no detail as to the content of the assembly presented by older students and I'd have thought that any directive on the subject of gender pronouns would have come from the head, not members of the student body.

VioletSky Re. your post at 15:23:46 - Or, as First Minister Humza Yousaf recently said about Adam Graham/Isla Bryson, they may just be “at it”.

Mollygo

But I'm not saying anything new. I'm just speaking as a feminist
Me too, but you’re wrong about so many things

I'm wrong about lots of things I expect

But my understanding of what discrimination is, what leads to it and how ignorance unknowingly perpetuates it are absolutely education based and completely on point

Thanks though

But I'm not saying anything new. I'm just speaking as a feminist
Me too, but you’re wrong about so many things

Dickens

Smileless2012

I asked that earlier on this thread Dickens but as far as I'm aware no one has answered, maybe because no one knows. If the teacher hadn't been told before hand that no teachers in the school ever referred to a classroom full, or group of students as girls, she's been treated very unfairly.

In some circumstances, using gender neutral pronouns may well feel and sound unnatural especially if there's genuine concern about being castigated for not doing so.

Thanks for the reply.

I'll reserve any 'judgement' then. Facts is facts! And if we don't know what they are yet, then it's difficult to know the rights and wrongs in this case.

Gender neutral pronouns don't trip easily off the tongue, I agree, but I have a trans woman friend and I'm getting used to it. I'd imagine an intelligent teacher would soon get the hang of it.

However I don't accept anyone having a hissy over a genuine mistake with no malign intent.

If you read the article linked to on page 1 of this thread the school has "diversity and inclusion prefects" and an assembly was given by them and older girls on gender and pronouns. It sounds as if the school is quite "woke"and the teacher wasn't. If you don't agree with the philosophy and ethos of a school it's difficult to understand why you would want to work there.