Identifying as a different gender

Wisefalcon

How the heck are you going to measure parental alienation in this matter when offspring all present themselves in a variety of fashions? You go with the flow ofcourse doing no harm and without severing the ties. What a strange idea to think that standing by your own morals and making clear your views as a parent will lead to estrangement.

Spot on.

In fact, the crux of this thread is that if 'young people' (not that they have a hive mind anyway) are led to expect adults to kowtow to their views on pain of losing a job, being estranged or whatever, then they will have nothing against which to test their views and beliefs.

As well as being an extremely unhealthy dynamic, this will make them very vulnerable to malign forces who want to harness their support in favour of one group and against another.

On an individual level, (as I've said countless times on here) I will respect anyone's choice of name, and do whatever politeness dictates in the circumstances of the encounter. Why wouldn't I? I would not have made a point of addressing a class as 'girls' had I known that someone in it wanted to be known as non-binary, but I think it's idiotic to sanction anyone for forgetting or failing to register that that was the case, in any workplace.

Galaxy and my guess would be that your offspring respected you more for that.

Galaxy

Sorry VS what's a get out of for free card, I dont know what you mean.

If your beliefs cannot be tested, if they cannot be challenged, if you cannot interpret them in a way that considers and mitigates any harm those beliefs may cause to others, particularly others you love.. then I would question whether those beliefs are well founded

I'm generally entirely respectful of any belief that has solid foundation without huge levels of cognitive dissonance between the belief itself and how people actually engage with others

Yes that's a good point. My children know that I am gender critical, in the same way they know I vote labour and my views on abortion. One child went through a period when he didnt agree with abortion. I certainly didnt change my view in order not to offend him.

VioletSky

That's what is wonderful about the thinking of younger generations in terms of gender galaxy they allow you the freedom to choose whether to express your gender or not and don't place you in any stereotypical box

Assuming you have never dressed or moved in any way to accentuate or show your sex of course. Although that's entirely natural, most animals do it with different colours or shapes or movements

I fully understand the difference between sex and gender, VS. Perhaps you can explain what point I am missing, as I don't feel that I have lost the thread.

Insisting that you are sex A but gender B is buying into and perpetuating the idea that certain social conventions/stereotypes (gender) need to be attached to a particular sex, and saying that if someone wants to express him or herself using conventions that do not tally with their sex then they need to 'transition' is the absolute ultimate in putting someone into a stereotypical box.

I think we all agree that people need to be identified by sex for all sorts of reasons?

Ok, so why not leave that there, and allow everyone to express 'gender' how they like? Why does it have to be compartmentalised into male, female or neither? None of those options allows for people who don't think that gender is a real thing, but a societally imposed set of stereotypes, which were breaking down anyway. As small examples, in my lifetime it has become acceptable for women to drink pints and men to cry at rom-coms. It has sometimes been fashionable for men to wear make-up, grow or cut their hair, and so on. It is less usual for them to wear dresses, but off the top of my head, Harry Styles, Ezra Miller and Brad Pitt have all done so relatively recently. It will catch on or it won't, but the option is there, without detracting from the fact that they are all men.

Without thinking most of us flip-flop between what used to be considered male and female norms. I am female by sex, but wouldn't stop to wonder about that if I decided I wanted to put on a denim jacket and go to the pub for a pint.

Where is the missing point?

How the heck are you going to measure parental alienation in this matter when offspring all present themselves in a variety of fashions? You go with the flow ofcourse doing no harm and without severing the ties. What a strange idea to think that standing by your own morals and making clear your views as a parent will lead to estrangement.

Jail I mean

Sorry VS what's a get out of for free card, I dont know what you mean.

I asked that earlier on this thread Dickens but as far as I'm aware no one has answered, maybe because no one knows. If the teacher hadn't been told before hand that no teachers in the school ever referred to a classroom full, or group of students as girls, she's been treated very unfairly.

In some circumstances, using gender neutral pronouns may well feel and sound unnatural especially if there's genuine concern about being castigated for not doing so.

Get out of jail free card

I don't understand people who don't actually engage in discussion or address points

It's so closed minded

Yes.

Because not being respectful alienates people.

But its up to everybody what they decide to do. Free country.

Lecturing on respect whilst using the phrase alienating your offspring

And we have spoken in conversation for years now galaxy and unless I am sure of a preference I always use gender neutral pronouns

In fact, I had a really long laugh on an actual discussion about gender neutral pronouns on gransnet because people were constantly complaining about the use of gender neutral pronouns soinding unnatural yet:

1. They hadn't noticed I was exclusively using them

2. I was able to highlight several instances of those complaining about gender neutral pronouns actually having already used them on the same thread

Such a small yet universally respectful thing

I actually dont know if the NHS guidelines have any reference to children that identify as non binary. I have a vague memory that non binary girls are more likely to end up with medical intervention further down the line than non binary boys but God knows how little evidence there is on that.

Galaxy

A bit like if someone asked you to sing the national anthem once a week. Go on, be kind what harm would it do. It's a belief I dont hold.
And with children well it has done harm so the opposite of kind.

Gender neutral pronouns or just avoiding pronouns doesn't harm anyone in any way whatsoever

Even Shakespear did it

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

A bit like if someone asked you to sing the national anthem once a week. Go on, be kind what harm would it do. It's a belief I dont hold.
And with children well it has done harm so the opposite of kind.

Was this teacher informed beforehand to NOT address her pupils as "girls"? Was it made clear to her that some would/ might identify differently?

If these two are true, and she waltzed into the classroom regardless saying "good morning girls" - then clearly she's in the wrong and I can see why her contract may have not been renewed.

But if she didn't know, and was left to 'assume' an understanding of possible differing gender identities, then her treatment is IMO harsh.

We can't punish adults because precocious 11 year olds decide to have a minor meltdown - and let me make it clear, I don't believe such precociousness is caused by gender-identity, but because children at that age can be very self-absorbed. If my own 11-year old self is anything to go by. I was obsessed with all kinds of antagonisms towards teachers, and anyone in authority in fact (and parent). Actually, I was horrible, and I cringe at the memory.

Preadolescence is a difficult period. The adult world is confusing and information that filters down from it is conflicting. That was my excuse anyway.

Was this particular child genuinely hurt, puzzled and upset - or was it an opportunity for a group of 'orrible kids' to gang up on a teacher they didn't like? Myself and a couple of my co-conspirators at school made our maths teacher cry at one point - that's why I still cringe.

I shouldn't get involved, I know, but I can't help myself.

What harm would it do to call someone "they" if that's what they want you to do?

A friend of mine was told by her son that his partner was non-binary, and preferred to be called "they". My friend was as nonplussed by this as most of us would be but said she would try to use "they" so as not to offend them.

She didn't stamp her little Gender Critical feet and pretend that it meant all our feminist rights were being eroded, or complain that the partner was playing a prank or having a tantrum and needed to grow up.

Just try to be nice to each other, is that too much to ask?

Galaxy

People can call themselves whatever they want, they cant compel me to use them. I believe that pronouns reflect sex. My beliefs on 'gender' are different to yours.

Yes, beliefs

Beliefs that sadly mean ignoring points and alienating young people who also don't believe in stereotypes and have actually learned very well from us older feminists before some went too far

You see that's drifting to stereotypes again. That women move in a particular way.
So men can wiggle down the street and women can wiggle down the street. Both are free to do that.

People can call themselves whatever they want, they cant compel me to use them. I believe that pronouns reflect sex. My beliefs on 'gender' are different to yours.

And of course galaxy that should mean you are entirely comfortable with people choosing pronouns that do not express their sex

That's what is wonderful about the thinking of younger generations in terms of gender galaxy they allow you the freedom to choose whether to express your gender or not and don't place you in any stereotypical box

Assuming you have never dressed or moved in any way to accentuate or show your sex of course. Although that's entirely natural, most animals do it with different colours or shapes or movements

I under no circumstances express my sex via my gender. Whatever that may mean. I think gender is a range of expectations placed on men and women by society.