Identifying as a different gender

I'll wait and see if anyone understands what I am actually saying in that, gender stereotypes and gender expression/communication are not actually the same thing at all

ah "philosphy and religious education teacher"

Why not let people continue to be defined by sex, as this has all sorts of implications for things like sport, rape, health etc, but get rid of sex-based assumptions around gender? It felt like we were getting a long way along that road until the trans lobby started insisting that gender stereotypes had to be upheld to the point that people should 'change gender' in order to comply with them.

Yes indeed!

Doodledog

You have missed the point

Sex exists, whether that is male, female or intersex and needs to for various reasons like receiving the correct medical care (as one example) which is why I always say that the trans identifier must be kept to keep people safe and well.

Gender is how most of us claim and express our sex, it's how we communicate ourselves. But now we are given to understand that is not the case for all of us and there are those who express their gender differently to their sex and wish to communicate that to us. There are also those who do not wish to communicate a gender to us at all. All of those are valid

Sex or gender are not what defines our capabilities and should never ever place us at any disadvantage or under any constriction

The fact that people thought it should has caused women all sorts of issues so we should be in a good position to understand

Doodledog

VioletSky

Here is the issue

Many women have been saying for decades "No! We will not be defined or constricted by our sex/gender, we are capable of anything and we DEMAND you give us the right to prove it with due respect*

Many trans people are saying We agree, sex/gender do not define us, we DEMAND the right to live authentically as our true selves with due respect

Some of the first women are now saying No! get back in your box and cannot see how illogical that is and how it undermines everything we have fought for.

The lack of logic is in someone saying that sex or gender do not define them, but they want to be known by a different sex or gender. That is the ultimate in being defined by sex or 'gender', surely?

Why not let people continue to be defined by sex, as this has all sorts of implications for things like sport, rape, health etc, but get rid of sex-based assumptions around gender? It felt like we were getting a long way along that road until the trans lobby started insisting that gender stereotypes had to be upheld to the point that people should 'change gender' in order to comply with them.

Why not let people continue to be defined by sex, as this has all sorts of implications for things like sport, rape, health etc, but get rid of sex-based assumptions around gender? It felt like we were getting a long way along that road until the trans lobby started insisting that gender stereotypes had to be upheld to the point that people should 'change gender' in order to comply with them.

This, absolutely.

VioletSky

Here is the issue

Many women have been saying for decades "No! We will not be defined or constricted by our sex/gender, we are capable of anything and we DEMAND you give us the right to prove it with due respect*

Many trans people are saying We agree, sex/gender do not define us, we DEMAND the right to live authentically as our true selves with due respect

Some of the first women are now saying No! get back in your box and cannot see how illogical that is and how it undermines everything we have fought for.

Utter Tommy rot!
Perhaps you need to look up the definition of “authentic” and “true”.
A male human is not being either of those things by claiming/identifying/pretending/living as (pick whichever suits) to be female. A male human can never become a female and vice versa - this is a fact, not a belief, ideology or delusion. No one is ‘born in the wrong body’.

What males (in the main) are saying to women is “we demand that you agree with us that we are women and therefore we demand the same rights as if we are the same sex as you.”

Equating women wanting to do “anything” that men can do is in no way like what some TRAs are now demanding.
For completeness, I know very well that there are men who identify as women who are thoroughly decent people and who accept that they are, and never will be, women and would not and do not insist on using single sex places set aside quite properly and legally for women's privacy, dignity and safety because they are aware of the distress that would cause.

It's quite a long document, it does when I have doubled checked use the phrase children, then describes the approaches relating to children and adolescents, it's very important that education staff are not left without any guidance on this, real clarity on what counts as social affirmation, age ranges and guidance on an approach that reflects current thinking.
There are currently legal actions by families against the tavistock, what if families decide to take legal actions against other organisations. I am afraid be kind and all the other slogans arent going to help. Specific evidence based guidance.

Galaxy

Actually the guidelines refer to children (I believe the children in this case were 11) social affirmation not recommended in children and for adolescents only in very specific circumstances. As I say hopefully education staff will be provided with guidelines that reflect the current thinking for children.

Sorry you misread or misquoted?

VioletSky

Here is the issue

Many women have been saying for decades "No! We will not be defined or constricted by our sex/gender, we are capable of anything and we DEMAND you give us the right to prove it with due respect*

Many trans people are saying We agree, sex/gender do not define us, we DEMAND the right to live authentically as our true selves with due respect

Some of the first women are now saying No! get back in your box and cannot see how illogical that is and how it undermines everything we have fought for.

The lack of logic is in someone saying that sex or gender do not define them, but they want to be known by a different sex or gender. That is the ultimate in being defined by sex or 'gender', surely?

Why not let people continue to be defined by sex, as this has all sorts of implications for things like sport, rape, health etc, but get rid of sex-based assumptions around gender? It felt like we were getting a long way along that road until the trans lobby started insisting that gender stereotypes had to be upheld to the point that people should 'change gender' in order to comply with them.

Actually the guidelines refer to children (I believe the children in this case were 11) social affirmation not recommended in children and for adolescents only in very specific circumstances. As I say hopefully education staff will be provided with guidelines that reflect the current thinking for children.

Yep! She’s still a girl and will remain female for the rest of her life. Maybe that’s the way to go. Good Morning Females-accurate for all.

VS do you not know anything about all-girl schools? They are as likely to have the sports and woodwork you mention as an all-boy school or even a Co-Ed, although to be fair, none of the high schools across the UK where I have links, teach woodwork any longer.
The single sex school I attended all those years ago, taught woodwork (carpentry), metalwork and technical drawing ( I was good at that), as well as all the humanities, arts and languages and domestic sciences. Apart from ‘nutrition’, it no longer does.

Galaxy

Well I am currently saying that the latest report and guidelines from the NHS are that social affirmation is not a recommended course of action for those pre puberty.

That's generally primary school galaxy So doesn't apply here

Well I am currently saying that the latest report and guidelines from the NHS are that social affirmation is not a recommended course of action for those pre puberty.

Ridiculous. Probably unfair dismissal.

Here is the issue

Many women have been saying for decades "No! We will not be defined or constricted by our sex/gender, we are capable of anything and we DEMAND you give us the right to prove it with due respect*

Many trans people are saying We agree, sex/gender do not define us, we DEMAND the right to live authentically as our true selves with due respect

Some of the first women are now saying No! get back in your box and cannot see how illogical that is and how it undermines everything we have fought for.

Girls tend to make better progress in single sex schools, it's not to do with knitting. There is of course a debate to be had about sex segregated schools considering girls also tend to outperform boys in mixed schools.

Pronouns are social affirmation, not recommended in nhs guidelines for those pre puberty. As I said I assume there will guidance for education staff on this soon. Although why I assume this (as it would reflect a level of efficiency), I have no idea.

Thanks Smileless. Co Ed would be fine so long as the pupil wanted to change schools. I think if she/he/they wanted to stay at the girls school, then that should be accommodated. The pupil is after all still a girl, and may go on to live as a male or female at in the future. If the pupil wanted to change school, that’s a different matter, but changing school is always disruptive to a pupil’s education.

What exactly is the value in schools that only cater to 50% of the population anyway?

What do the children gain?

I need convincing there is any point really to segregating our children by sex.

The days of one teaching cooking and knitting while the other teaches sports and woodwork had better be gone or I'm going to start throwing tantrums about it

I think that co ed schools were suggested rather than a boys school maddy.

Also

While I still see complaints about it, many are trying to help us with that situation so that we don't feel bad by actively declaring their pronouns

This thread (apart from being a bit of an overreaction because of untruths I'm not blaming anyone for) seems to be about, how we navigate these situations.

Unless we actively want to alienate others...

Many solutions are available

I’ve only just caught this thread, so I’m not reading seven pages of it or I’ll be here all day.
For what it’s worth, I don’t think teachers should be sacked or denied an extension of contract because of saying ‘good morning girls’ or whatever, but teachers should accept that they may need to change their language when these types of circumstances arise. I always said ‘good morning children’ but my classes were young children, ‘good morning everyone’ should suffice for older children. No big deal. As for making the young pupil leave because it’s an all girls school, well I think that very cruel. She is still a girl and probably feeling confused. To put her in a boys school would not be helpful at all, in my opinion.

op. Personally, [and I recogise I am not likely to ever be in the teacher's position, nor have the freedom of choice] I would want to carry on saying "Good morning girls" or whatever.

And as Daddima says, can anyone really change their chromosones.

But I would want to be polite to those who want to change gender. Some of them are quite mixed up, from what little I know.

Elegran

True. Nothing anyone posts really influences anyone else's behaviour, attitudes or prejudices. Let's be realistic, it is all just a way of filling in time. Those who can, do. Those who can't, rant about it.

I would agree to differ.

May start a thread on that sometime if no one else chooses to. Or you could start one.