Identifying as a different gender

volver3

^but stating as fact that this was just a case of a non-renewed contract is jumping to conclusions every bit as much as stating that she was sacked.^

No its not. If you can't see the difference then it makes the rest of your long post a bit suspect too.

volver I write long posts because this issue is not about soundbites or one-liners. 'She didn't get sacked' is not even attempting to explore the issues, is it?

What is it that you suspect me of doing? Actually, don't answer that. I stopped engaging with you some time ago, and will do so again from now on - I can't be bothered to engage with artificially superior behaviour, and won't be diverted into a 'discussion' about an irrelevance which ignores the points I was making.

Caleo, up to a point I agree, although my own 70s education was far from child-centred . But schools are not places where individuality usually flourishes. Uniforms, rules, when people can speak and when they have to listen, which lessons happen when and how they are run, what personal items are allowed - all of these things are, arguably, illiberal and unempowering (if not deliberately disempowering). But they are necessary to discipline and to creating an atmosphere where children can learn. If this child had made a point of saying that she thought she was a boy as a considered decision with which her parents agreed, but the teacher refused to go along with it, there is an argument for wondering if she was doing so deliberately and disrespectfully. But that doesn't seem to be the case - there was one child who wanted to use a plural pronoun, and no suggestion that the teacher even knew about it (that's another thing we don't appear to know, though).

There are various issues here, I think:
Should a teacher be disciplined in front of a class of 11 year olds?
Casualisation of professionals (something of a bugbear of mine as an ex-UCU rep, but it is still important, I think).
Compulsory affirmation of so-called 'gender' changes in children.
The Forstater judgement which allows the teacher to hold her own views about sex and gender.
Whether so-called 'gender' should be seen as more important than sex in a single-sex school.
Whether school policy should be dictated by 11 year olds.
Whether the teacher was being deliberately unkind to an 11 year old child.

It's much more complex than a one-line post can cover, I think.

Galaxy, please don't be afraid. I like to hear others' valid arguments.

Doodledog, I am absolutely with you regarding discipline, and I admire teachers who can keep a calm class especially in some of the difficult schools we hear about.

Under no circumstances should a head complain to a class teacher in front of his class!

volver3

^but stating as fact that this was just a case of a non-renewed contract is jumping to conclusions every bit as much as stating that she was sacked.^

No its not. If you can't see the difference then it makes the rest of your long post a bit suspect too.

rude

PS Doodledog. When I was twelve or thirteen at a mixed sex school in Scotland I argued with the English teacher that I was right to omit apostrophes because George Bernard Saw did so. The teacher replied that when I became as famous as GBS than I could do so too. Thus the teacher gave me a lesson not only English punctuation but also a lesson in sociology.

Caleo

PS Doodledog. When I was twelve or thirteen at a mixed sex school in Scotland I argued with the English teacher that I was right to omit apostrophes because George Bernard Saw did so. The teacher replied that when I became as famous as GBS than I could do so too. Thus the teacher gave me a lesson not only English punctuation but also a lesson in sociology.

And wit .

I think your example shows that teachers are all different, and react to things differently. Some are grumpy old so and so's, and others are lovely. Some manage discipline with sarcasm and others with kindness, or strictness etc etc. Just like everyone else. Children need to learn how to navigate that. What they get away with in one class might not fly in another, as the teacher's style is different, and that's ok, within sensible boundaries that ensure that there is not too much inconsistency where it matters.

Let’s try this then.

There has been a significant number of posters here complaining about the fact that this teacher was sacked, some even saying how she should sue the school.

But the teacher wasn’t sacked, she did not have her one-term contract renewed, which is a different thing altogether. As she had clearly not been there for a whole term at the time of this incident, perhaps the school decided that she didn’t fit in with their ethos.

Whether schools should behave that way, or whether teachers should be made to apologise to children, is not the issue I am concerned about. This is the way that school behaves and the teacher in question clearly didn’t fit in with their rules.

So if we say that a teacher “was sacked because she called someone a girl and they didn’t like it”, that is an entirely different proposition to saying that a temporary teacher didn’t have their short contract renewed because they didn’t fit into the school where they were briefly, temporarily employed.

But it fits in with the current febrile atmosphere around gender equality to suggest people are sacked for defending women’s and children’s rights, and it contributes to misinformation.

So Doodledog, its very important to the situation whether the teacher was sacked or whether they didn’t get their contract renewed. You might call it a soundbite, I prefer to say “keeping to the facts so as not to stir up trouble.”

It's difficult for people to be sacked now for holding gender critical beliefs for example because of the forstater case. Was Alison Bailey on a temporary contract? That rings a bell but there have been a number of cases where women have had take legal action so I may have got mixed up.

Doodledog Thu 20-Apr-23 11:10:56

A good post DD.

The teacher being disciplined in front of 11 year olds must have felt humiliated. And I really don't think that was necessary. There are many different ways this could have been dealt with - without upsetting either the child or the teacher.

And now look, it's become a centre-piece in the media, when it could've been sensitively handled and kept out of it.

Unless a teacher is being deliberately obnoxious towards the pupils, there is no need to humiliate them.

Why do parents choose a single-sex school for their child's education? Will all the parents be impressed with the way the Head dealt with this? Is this why it was done? Will they be pleased that the school is now the focus of attention - for all the wrong reasons?

If the Head is so 'on-point' regarding gender-identity issues - why was there no formal mandatory 'edict' about how the children should be addressed by a teacher walking into the classroom in the morning?

When I was at school, a co-educational boarding school - obviously at a time when such identities were not acknowledged (which doesn't mean they weren't recognised) I remember every teacher walking into the room saying "Good-Morning, Class" or, the name of the year... "Good Morning, 1A". It's a simple and inclusive greeting, and something like it should already have been in place. Then if any teacher refused to comply, it's obvious they're being 'difficult' which would be a clear cut case for disciplinary measures.

Wyllow3

I still feel there's a bit more to this than meets the eye, because I think Doodledog makes good points about defusing the situation as regards the students.

It wasn't one student, it was a group, sounds like they were "trying it on". We still dont know if there was a genuine trans student or it was a "set up"

Probably could have been dealt with a lot better - don't agree with forced apologising in the situation as outlined to date at all, but I'm reserving an opinion for the tribunal when we can hear a whole story, not the "shock horror headlines".

Pupils of that age will often try it on with teachers over various things. Even in the days when discipline was more rigidly enforced, sensing a weakness or mistake could bring out the worst in teenagers.

It was handled poorly by the school after that.

Certainly Doodledog’s posts are long but they have given me much food for thought. And I will say that I agree with a lot of what she says eg that it makes little difference whether the contract was not renewed/she was sacked to how she pays her mortgage every month etc. Dd’s posts are well thought out and relevant. And they don’t contain put downs or sarcasm …

that it makes little difference whether the contract was not renewed/she was sacked to how she pays her mortgage every month etc.

It makes a difference to us, we who are observing the event.

Please picture the event that someone is sacked because they inadvertedly make a child feel uncomfortable. That seems a bit harsh, doesn't it? Especially if we think the child had nothing to be uncomfortable about and they brought it on themselves with unreasonable demands.

Now picture an event where a school decides not to renew a recent contract which was only ever meant to be temporary anyway, because the incumbent doesn't meet their standards. Their standards are their own business, and if we don't like them that's fair enough, but the are their standards.

It's a whole different thing.

I am not sure their standards are their own business to be honest. They have to operate within the law, so for example if they didnt extend a contract because of a staff member expressing gender critical beliefs (I am not at all saying that was the case here) then there would be a case.
They may have acted completely properly in this case I have no idea, but it's not just a case that they can have any standards they wish.

Aye, there's always a "but" when you're GC...

Well yes issues are complex, so issues are explored and discussed, sometimes the word but appears. Tends to move things beyond slogans and mantras.

Wyllow3

No. She was on a one term contract and it was not renewed.

the story is actually quite a bit more complicated: it wasn't at all just about the "good afternoon girls:
I tried to find a reasonably unbiased article and LBC seems the best available.

www.lbc.co.uk/news/female-teacher-apologise-good-afternoon-girls-20k-a-year

We still only have her account not the schools.

Excuse me for sounding thick , I was never very good at understanding the complexity of the English language and pronouns, but in the article it says that the children had put a list on the board with their preferred pronouns and one of them had put " they/them " but in my understanding those are plural? How can you identify as plural do you have a split personality or is a typical teenage stupid why of saying "look at me and how clever I am"
( not)

Also with regard to the Teacher not having her contract renewed although this wasn't in my original post, had she been made aware of the situation if it was something flagged up in the the school policy and staff updates then perhaps she is at fault but otherwise how would she know?

Excuse me for sounding thick , I was never very good at understanding the complexity of the English language and pronouns, but in the article it says that the children had put a list on the board with their preferred pronouns and one of them had put " they/them " but in my understanding those are plural? How can you identify as plural do you have a split personality or is a typical teenage stupid why of saying "look at me and how clever I am"
You don't sound thick - you are right that they/them is a plural pronoun, but it has been adopted by people who identify as 'non-binary' or 'gender neutral'. What that means is difficult to understand unless you believe that most people are somehow 'gender based' and only think, look and behave like the culturally determined ways for their sex (eg a giggly woman in a floral skirt and heels, sewing or cooking with her hair styled and lipstick on, or a deep-voiced man with a beard and checked shirt cutting down a tree or drinking beer). Anyway, the girl in question didn't want to be known as 'she', but as 'they'. Whether or not the teacher knew, had forgotten, was never informed about this, or just made a slip when addressing the class isn't known, I don't think. It's not about split personalities, but I suspect that there is a certain amount of 'look how special I am' involved, as the majority of people are not exclusively one gender or the other - they would be parodies of manhood or womanhood otherwise.

Thank you for your kind words, DamaskRose, and Dickens.

Maybe we should say good morning humans. Or would that be offensive to animals?

'They/them' are now in common usage as non-binary pronouns. Reading this thread makes me wonder how many of those commenting have ever actually met someone who uses those pronouns.

Yes of course.

For many students, the gender issues are an excellent way of being noticed. I do understand (I'm a Biologist) that there are various types and degrees of intersex individuals but ideas often change as an individual comes out of their teens.

Unchallenging acceptance can smooth relationships and reducing confrontation with gender neutral vocabulary is effective. This generally enables a pleasant atmosphere to prevail. I think too much importance is often ascribed to whims but deciding which student will leave the phase behind is almost impossible.

So I found that with least fuss calm is achieved fastest and useful work can proceed.

Blondiescot

'They/them' are now in common usage as non-binary pronouns. Reading this thread makes me wonder how many of those commenting have ever actually met someone who uses those pronouns.

Yes.
Someone we knew growing up, a little older than our DGC, who announced that she is now to be known as they/them.

I think they/them have always been used in speech as non-specific pronouns but have now taken on a more definite meaning.

What age are the pupils in this particular case?

I do think, if 12 to 15, they are at an impressionable age. These topics should be discussed but whether or not such emphasis should be put on them in schools, such as asking pupils that age to do a project on what they think about transgender issues, how they feel about transgender women in sport, is a debatable issue.

I am sure historically many single sex schools had pupils who didn't feel comfortable at times with how they felt or were treated. . Its how they could voice it thats changed. Lots still to be learnt about how that is said and how it is listened to.