Identifying as a different gender

I really appreciate that people don't like the idea of children having an equal say in how they are educated and how they communicate, but honestly some parents really want their children to be educated and raised like that.
This school dealt with the matter.
It is a private school where parents pay to have their child educated the way they want them to be.
If they wanted their children educated and raised the way you want them to be they wouldn't send them there
It's quite simple really.
You can't criticise the children for writing on the board if that is permitted by the school.
You can't criticise the head for asking the teacher to apologise if she has breached school guidelines
You can't criticise the head for being present when the apology is given.
It is one school and the way it deals with things is not your decision to make.

You thinking that the issue is a non binary child doesn't surprise me Glorianny because as you say that is completely irrelevant.

Had my child told me that they and their class mates had written their views/feelings/opinions about a particular matter on the class room board in the teacher's absence, so it was there when they walked into the classroom, I would have told them it was not appropriate.

Are the judgements you are making only because the issue is a non-binary child? If the child were neither non-binary nor trans, but the teacher had been, what are the odds that you would be inventing scenarios in support of the children and Head?

Smileless2012

That isn't denying them a voice Glorianny, it's teaching children to communicate in the right way. Communicating privately or giving the teacher the list on paper are simply examples which for some posters are a preferred method.

Denying them a voice would have been denying any opportunity and/or way of expressing how they felt.

That isn't what shared responsibility is about Smileless I appreciate you don't like it. But as an educational concept it exists and one of its conditions is that communication takes place openly, and in a way that enables the children to express themselves, either individually or collectively. The adults involved don't expect to be handed notes, or spoken to privately. In asking that the children behave the way you expect, or want, them to you go against the whole ethos of shared responsibility. The fact that writing on the board is regarded as not acceptable is not your decision to make. The head of the school accepted it and I suspect she understands the issue, and the concepts more than any on here.
I'm absolutely astounded that there are so many judgements about this case and think it can only be because the issue is a non-binary child. As far as I'm concerned that is completely irrelevant. The children might have been complaining about maths teaching. If the ethos of the school permits and encourages them to behave as they did, that is the business of the school and the parents and no one else.

Absolutely, Smileless. So comments about not wanting children to rule the roost have been twisted to say that Some Posters don't want them to be allowed a voice. As I thought.

OK so some of the parents contact the head about the incident. She says the teacher has apologised. The parents say their children didn't think the apology was genuine or properly worded. The HT wasn't there, nothing she can do or say. Parents are going to escalate the matter
The HT was there she can confidently say she witnessed the apology it was genuine and she can tell the parents what was said. Parents are satisfied.
Oh, has another article been written on the subject? If we now know more about what happened I might re-evaluate. Can you drop us a link please?

That isn't denying them a voice Glorianny, it's teaching children to communicate in the right way. Communicating privately or giving the teacher the list on paper are simply examples which for some posters are a preferred method.

Denying them a voice would have been denying any opportunity and/or way of expressing how they felt.

I know that's your opinion Glorianny but it's not one I share.

Doodledog

*You may not approve of children having a voice but some parents do.*
Who is 'you' here?

I have only seen people saying that it is not the fact that the children raised concerns that is the issue, but the way they raised them. Perhaps I missed something - it's a long thread. Could you point me in the direction of something that says the poster doesn't approve of children having a voice, please?

It has been posted many times that they shouldn't have written on the board, they should have communicated privately, they should have written it on paper.
One of the features of education where responsibility is shared is that children communicate openly and collectively with the adults involved. Not permitting them to do so in the way they choose is denying them a voice. I appreciate that the whole concept is difficult for some people.

Smileless2012

Very well put eazybee.

Never trust an adult who cannot apologise to a child, yes VS you've posted this a few times but no one's said they wouldn't apologise, and as has been said time and time again, it's not making the apology that's being disagreed with, it's the presence of the head.

OK so some of the parents contact the head about the incident. She says the teacher has apologised. The parents say their children didn't think the apology was genuine or properly worded. The HT wasn't there, nothing she can do or say. Parents are going to escalate the matter
The HT was there she can confidently say she witnessed the apology it was genuine and she can tell the parents what was said. Parents are satisfied.

Honestly a head coming into a classroom to witness an event, monitor behaviour, assess a situation ,or a teacher, is no big deal. It happens all the time.

You may not approve of children having a voice but some parents do.
Who is 'you' here?

I have only seen people saying that it is not the fact that the children raised concerns that is the issue, but the way they raised them. Perhaps I missed something - it's a long thread. Could you point me in the direction of something that says the poster doesn't approve of children having a voice, please?

Very well put eazybee.

Never trust an adult who cannot apologise to a child, yes VS you've posted this a few times but no one's said they wouldn't apologise, and as has been said time and time again, it's not making the apology that's being disagreed with, it's the presence of the head.

Some private schools have a completely different ethos to state schools. The parents are aware of this and choose to send their child there because that is how they want their child to be educated. It may not match the state system. The staff and the head will be fully aware of the requirements and will work within them. Some teachers can't work in such environments. In which case they need to resign.
The idea that all schools operate to the narrow idea that children are always to be regarded as lesser beings and must not be allowed to challenge authority figures is just wrong. Some schools operate differently.
The teacher had no need to apologise if she felt the children were wrong, she could have resigned. However if you work in a school and that school is one which regards education as a cooperative operation, where children have a voice you can't complain if they use that voice.
If you want to know about alternative styles of private education try here www.goodschoolsguide.co.uk/choosing-a-school/alternative-schools/the-alternatives
Those are the most extreme versions.
You may not approve of children having a voice but some parents do.

Some people do not have the ability to be accountable and apologise and can't understand this sort of thing

I have some respect for the teacher in this scenario for being able to do so

Never trust an adult who cannot apologise to a child

Mollygo

So evidently, VS and Glorianny are in favour of bullying as long as it’s by children and it supports trans.
Such a good example to set, especially if you work in a school.

What is this? Lol

Surely it depends on how the Head stood with the Teacher. In all the schools I've worked in, the Head has started an Assembly and would have remained on stage (or front of the room) when others came to do their bit. Those who are calling it bullying are surely assuming that it was more purposeful than is usual where it might not be. We don't know that. It may have been bullying, it may not have been. Unfortunately, we only have one side of the story.

Easybee, I couldn't agree more with every word of your post.

An adult standing over another adult to ensure that her apology is delivered suitably is horribly humiliating. It is reminiscent of a parent dragging a child to the shop where he's stolen sweets and making him apologise. The whole point is to make the experience unforgettable and that the 'crime' will never be repeated. It is not the behaviour of one professional to another.

Also, the teacher has to return to a relationship with the class where she is in authority. How would that work in those circumstances?

There are some very skewed ideas about bullying on this thread. It is not ok to ask questions in order to discuss things on a discussion forum, but it is ok to allow 11 year olds to disrupt classes and force a teacher to apologise before losing her job (whatever the semantics, she had a job, and then she didn't).

Nobody, but nobody, is saying that the views of children are unimportant, just as nobody on these threads ever suggests that they feel the views of transpeople are unimportant. What is important is the way these views are put across; and coercion, bullying and intimidation are not acceptable whether you are screaming in the face of women at a demo or taking authority away from a teacher (if the way it was reported is correct).

Glad you think it’s funny trisher!

Disclaimer: the incident under discussion is based on a newspaper report with no corroborating evidence; the school, Head and teacher have not been identified, so it may well be inaccurate.

A Headteacher can, and should, deal with a classroom incident outside the classroom away from the pupils in the privacy of her study. She may need to involve other people in management roles and possible witnesses but she should avoid placing the teacher in a situation where her authority is undermined. Pupils are used to adults, including members of staff, observing teachers as they teach, but to stand by to ensure the teacher apologises to a class of pupils is unprofessional.

These pupils were rude to the teacher, wrote all over the board, (never condoned; a paper list given to her personally would have sufficed), then mounted a protest in the lunch hour. There is no mention of them being disciplined, let alone apologising for their behaviour.

The actions of this Head need investigation. She over-reacted to a silly situation and allowed the pupils to take control.
A dangerous precedent.

Mollygo

So evidently, VS and Glorianny are in favour of bullying as long as it’s by children and it supports trans.
Such a good example to set, especially if you work in a school.

Thanks Mollygo I needed a laugh this morning!!!

So evidently, VS and Glorianny are in favour of bullying as long as it’s by children and it supports trans.
Such a good example to set, especially if you work in a school.

People have very odd ideas about a head teacher's role as regards staff and the school.
If someone has broken the guidelines, or infringed the policies, or worked against the ethos of the school, the HT's job is to ensure that is corrected, to her satisfaction, and the satisfaction of those involved.
That may involve spending time in the classroom with the member of staff involved. She may offer support but her role is also to oversee and manage the situation and the people involved.
This is not meant to humiliate, nor is it bullying.
It ensures the process is properly witnessed . When the incidents involved are documented it will mean the HT can truthfully and accurately report that the matter has been dealt with. Should any questions arise, from parents, governors or children she will be able to report a proper resolution.
The reason or nature of the infringement is irrelevant, the process would be the same.

If there are any further complaints the head can say the situation is resolved

Yes the children or parents not being satisified with the apology is possible so the head can remove that possibility by witnessing it

So if a complaint goes to:

Governors
LEA
OFSTED

The head can say it was resolved

The head is accountable to others too so that how it works

By witnessing it she is protecting the teacher how is that protecting the teacher, unless the head thought the children may claim she hadn't apologised, even when she had.

Why though?

Fir what reasons us it humiliation and bullying?

You must understand the head wouldn't have been there to make sure she did it, she would have been there to witness it.

By witnessing it she is protecting the teacher

I think it is humiliation and bullying too. I would hand in my notice and find a more pleasant environment to work in. I would also go and see a lawyer and sue them.