Identifying as a different gender

The discussion with VS lasted for 2 pages. She stated many times that she followed guidelines, said she knew they changed and gave personal examples. She was still questioned about her views and her professionalism.
One of the typical behaviour of bullies is that they will join in targeting someone then deny their involvement and say they were just acting as an individual.

I was not harassing her. (Again, it would be so much easier if you direct your comments where they are intended so there is no risk of someone replying only to be told it's not about them). I asked a question, which, as I have explained many times, was to highlight that an insistence that having been trained in something and abiding by guidelines is not necessarily acting in accordance with an absolute truth. The answer was that VS would act in accordance with the guidelines, so I pressed her (although the question was, of course, open to anyone who cared to join in) as to how that would work if the guidelines changed. I did so in order to explore my point about training and guidelines, which is normal in debate, surely? 'Ask a question, get an answer, explore that answer' is a very usual debating pattern. I used myself as an example of how training and guidelines can go out of date - I was not singling out VS in that regard.

You have said before that you don't like being expected to answer questions, and see those who press for them as 'hounding'. How else do you expect debate to work if nobody is expected to contribute answers to questions that pick up on things they have said?

I don't know how often I need to say all of this, or how often you will ignore it. Does it not fit with your narrative of me as bully?

Smileless2012

Can you give an example of where on this thread you've seen a demand for an answer Glorianny? Where an answer has been asked for forcibly because the person asking believes they have a right to be given one.

Can you also give an example where an explanation has been asked for unreasonably? It seems to me that it very much depends on whose been asked to explain as to whether or not, the request to do so is unreasonable.

I refer you to the questioning of VS about guidelines. She made it clear that as a professional she followed the guidelines (as do we all. And those of us who worked through Clause 28 know
how wrong they can be). She was then questioned about that again, accused of avoidance and generally harassed. (Not by you). If someone says they will follow the professional guidelines what else can they say?
They may be right or wrong but they are the conditions we work under it is unreasonable to question that professionalism.

Something like affirming someone's insistence that they are of the other sex/don't belong to any sex/want to be called by a special name for something that is 99% usual (ie non-gender conforming) or whatever other 'authentic self' fascism is de rigeur at the time is not rescuing a child from clear and present danger. It is part of a drip effect that encourages the belief that sex and gender are optional, that being a man or a woman is meaningless, that the language should change to reflect this, that children of 11 (or younger) have the right to dictate to adults - even those in supposed authority, and so much more.

That is why this needs proper debate. It's not a simple thing like calling Sarah Sal, or Harry Hal, against parental preference.

It may be that it is a good thing. That children have the right to decide these things for themselves and that adults who refuse to help them are abusive. It may be that it is better for adults to do what they think is best, and say that childhood is not the time to get involved in these things. It may be that this is a fashion, or that there are more sinister motives responsible for the upsurge in the numbers of very young people deciding that they are 'in the wrong body'. Who knows?

It would be so nice to be able to debate those things calmly and without unpleasantness. I respect the views of many on here, whether I agree with them or not, and am very open to learning new things, but like most people, I react to twisting words, attempts at diversion and accusations of bullying.

Can you give an example of where on this thread you've seen a demand for an answer Glorianny? Where an answer has been asked for forcibly because the person asking believes they have a right to be given one.

Can you also give an example where an explanation has been asked for unreasonably? It seems to me that it very much depends on whose been asked to explain as to whether or not, the request to do so is unreasonable.

Iam64

My experience is that every discussion about trans issues quickly divides. The majority want to develop discussion with a focus on the welfare of children and protection of safe spaces for women.
Glory and Violet get on their moral high ground, disagree, disrupt and accuse those who don’t agree with them of being wrong.
This constant reference to female bullying is another example of dismissing other women . There’s a clear suggestion that those of us who don’t agree with you haven’t transcended onto your moral high ground

Female bullying is dismissing other women!!!
No it is identifying victims and supporting them. It happens. Denying it is of importance is simply ignoring truths. You can by all means say that the questioning on this thread isn't bullying. To which I would answer in my experience it is. It includes demanding explanations when they have already been given and then questioning those explanations unreasonably.

As far as the questions about guidelines in schools are concerned I see parallels between what happened with homosexuality and Clause 28, happening with trans matters. So a relaxing of restrictions and more inclusivity, followed by a reactionary period which is eventually changed. Unfortunately we are now entering the reactionary period.

As for the question about following guidelines causing harm. Teachers are clear on this. If a child is in danger or a situation which puts them in peril, teachers can act in loco parentis, ie as a caring parent would act, and can ignore any guidelines in order to protect the child.

Yes well out and very accurate Iam. It's as if some don't want a sensible discussion on these issues which makes me wonder why they take part.

Iam64

My experience is that every discussion about trans issues quickly divides. The majority want to develop discussion with a focus on the welfare of children and protection of safe spaces for women.
Glory and Violet get on their moral high ground, disagree, disrupt and accuse those who don’t agree with them of being wrong.
This constant reference to female bullying is another example of dismissing other women . There’s a clear suggestion that those of us who don’t agree with you haven’t transcended onto your moral high ground

Well put Iam64 and very accurate.

My experience is that every discussion about trans issues quickly divides. The majority want to develop discussion with a focus on the welfare of children and protection of safe spaces for women.
Glory and Violet get on their moral high ground, disagree, disrupt and accuse those who don’t agree with them of being wrong.
This constant reference to female bullying is another example of dismissing other women . There’s a clear suggestion that those of us who don’t agree with you haven’t transcended onto your moral high ground

You haven't defended yourself against misogyny, Glorianny. Your posts are always anti-women and pro trans, if they are not disrupting threads to divert the discussion into arguments like this one. I have asked both you and trisher if you could point to one example of where you have or would take the part of a woman over a transwoman if there were a conflict of interest, and neither of you has come up with one, hypothetical or otherwise.

What started as a discussion about schools and how teachers deal with children (with particular reference to one case) and morphed into one about guidelines and how far they represent absolute truth has become pointless. It always happens, it's tedious and I'm bored with it.

Smileless2012

You've mentioned bullying 5 times on this thread Glorianny the first in your post @ 18.35.

But my specific reply to Doodledog was about the without flinging accusations about
Certainly I made an accusation of bullying but that was answered with an accusation of misogyny which I think I defended too well to suit Doodledog who then pretended it was nothing to do with her. You can't really throw accusations about and then complain about them (well you can but it isn't helpful or honest)

I realise you don't accept that bullying was happening Smileless2012 but I do think that cross examining someone and not accepting their answers is bullying. Particularly when your sole purpose is to undermine them.

Anyway

Here is a blunt, I'm going to bed, I've got a DAY tomorrow and am tired of defending myself as a person for now at least

When I deal with bullying at school doodledog often there are scenarios where both children feel the other is the bully.

Actually there is room for everyone's feelings in any situation

So instead of allowing rounds of back and forth accusations I would counsel each child to actually listen to the other and change some of their negative behaviours in order to have, not necessarily a friendship but at least a peaceful coexistence where each has unlearned negative behaviours

I would agree that people make accusations of bullying to silence others but I'm not doing that.

2 reasons:

1. These discussions matter and even if we can't find resolution, I've changed my stance on certain things and grown understanding of some things from gender critical stances that I agree matter

2. That's just not logical, I'm not here to silence anyone, your voice matters. I just believe the way you use it matters more

You've mentioned bullying 5 times on this thread Glorianny the first in your post @ 18.35.

Doodledog

Glorianny

I agree that it's a difficult question, and I'd hoped we could explore it without accusations flinging around
Like accusations of misogyny for example?
Honestly at least own your own posts.

Are you saying that my pointing out the misogyny in your posts is bullying? Seriously?

I do own my own posts and I make it clear whether I am directing comments to one person or in general. In the case of the guidelines posts, I picked up on VS's continual referencing of guidelines and training as though they were gospel, as way of pointing out that those things are not always 100% truth or fact. It was not bullying VS at all, but continuing the bit of the discussion that she began with her reference to training and guidelines. As I said, I have been trained in EO myself, and have been involved in writing institutional guidelines. To save you the bother, I don't need you to tell me that what I learnt and taught is now out of date (although I'm sure you won't be able to resist doing so anyway ), which is my point. Guidelines change, as do the training courses that produce them. They are not absolutes. So anyone seeing them as such is going to be disappointed, and potentially conflicted when they change.

I have said this several times, and others seem to get it.

Now who is misreading. I never mentioned bullying. Simply your ridiculous attempt to claim the high ground by implying others are flinging accusations around- something you constantly do.
I usually ignore it.
But honestly own your posts!

I agree Glorianny but I haven't ignored any bullying on this thread because I haven't seen any.

I agree Doodledog that making the accusations is used to silence others especially if they're the gender critical, and as appears to be happening here, to disrupt a thread to the extent that those who want to have the discussion just feel as if they're wasting their time.

Glorianny
Unfortunately that won't prevent the bullying of such children by some of their peers, or provide them with the level of support they need.
You are so right! I still remember (again at an all girls school) the misery caused
to my DGD and others by the girl who decided she was trans and bullied anyone who wasn’t in her gang! Getting support for those girls she bullied was incredibly difficult.
The girl who, incidentally once the value of being trans had faded, decided that she wasn’t trans, but lesbian!

I do not make threads about me

I respond to others comments to me

Just as I am doing now Mollygo

Were that actually bullying I would be mortified and apologise and try to make it right... I certainly wouldn't go on the attack version of defence

Doodledog

Smileless2012

This is an open forum for discussion and asking people questions is to be expected; I haven't seen any demands for answers.

As for the rest, this isn't a thread about bullying and once again it's been disrupted making discussion on the topic of identifying as a different gender virtually impossible.

Indeed. Calling people bullies is a way of silencing anyone who dares to disagree. It is, in itself, an insidious form of bullying.

Those who choose to ignore bullying are just being complicit. Once again the gender critical cant admit to a reality
And yes that is you Doodledog

By the way Doodledog you probably missed it but I answered the question about teachers and guidelines sometime ago. Teachers have dealt with so many initiatives and restrictive practices over the years that they are experts in sticking to the guidelines whilst coping with the demands of reality, children, and parents. Over 20 years ago we dealt with homosexuality under the restrictions of clause 28, supporting children who were obviously gay without promoting it.
I have no doubt that teachers will adapt to any restrictions put upon them about trans children. Unfortunately that won't prevent the bullying of such children by some of their peers, or provide them with the level of support they need.

Smileless2012

This is an open forum for discussion and asking people questions is to be expected; I haven't seen any demands for answers.

As for the rest, this isn't a thread about bullying and once again it's been disrupted making discussion on the topic of identifying as a different gender virtually impossible.

Indeed. Calling people bullies is a way of silencing anyone who dares to disagree. It is, in itself, an insidious form of bullying.

I think you’re wrong VS. I think you know very well that some of your posts are bullying, often by making a thread “all about you”. I do agree that you’re unlikely to see that as bullying though.

Glorianny

^I agree that it's a difficult question, and I'd hoped we could explore it without accusations flinging around^
Like accusations of misogyny for example?
Honestly at least own your own posts.

Are you saying that my pointing out the misogyny in your posts is bullying? Seriously?

I do own my own posts and I make it clear whether I am directing comments to one person or in general. In the case of the guidelines posts, I picked up on VS's continual referencing of guidelines and training as though they were gospel, as way of pointing out that those things are not always 100% truth or fact. It was not bullying VS at all, but continuing the bit of the discussion that she began with her reference to training and guidelines. As I said, I have been trained in EO myself, and have been involved in writing institutional guidelines. To save you the bother, I don't need you to tell me that what I learnt and taught is now out of date (although I'm sure you won't be able to resist doing so anyway ), which is my point. Guidelines change, as do the training courses that produce them. They are not absolutes. So anyone seeing them as such is going to be disappointed, and potentially conflicted when they change.

I have said this several times, and others seem to get it.

This is an open forum for discussion and asking people questions is to be expected; I haven't seen any demands for answers.

As for the rest, this isn't a thread about bullying and once again it's been disrupted making discussion on the topic of identifying as a different gender virtually impossible.

I think the problem with a lot of bullies is they do not see themselves as bullies. That would involve feeling shame and shame is too unbearable.

Even when they are deliberately drip drip drip trying to wind a person up until they blow, the blow is their "justification" and they can't see that the blow is the reaction to their behaviour they see their behaviour as them "exposing" the other person.

Even when they are being deliberately rude or making personal comments they have often justified it in their own minds that you deserve it.

Even when they are taking the passive aggressive approach of simply agreeing with anyone who says something unkind about you the justification in their minds is that you deserve it.

When they are demanding you answer questions or accusing you of avoiding questions or otherwise just playing those sorts of games the justification is always there, they don't want answers really, you can tell as soon as you don't get actual discussion in response, they just want a way to catch you out an place themselves above you.

When they are talking about you in front of your face or behind your back by name in directly insulting ways.. you can see how they justify it to each other and how those back pats let them feel better.

Yet bully behaviour is exactly that and there actually is no justification.

And of course a difference can be exactly as simple as having a different opinion.

Male and female patterns of bullying are different yes, the methods used to cover it up are very similar and easily identified though.

I find it all very interesting and understanding the ways in which women bully, and the methods like gaslighting and reversing victim and offender that are used to justify and cover it up become more easy to spot over time but easy to miss for many bystanders