The Guardian has apologised after a cartoon depicting BBC chairman Richard Sharp was criticised as antisemitic.

Iam64

MaizieD I don’t believe it’s accurate to say when you’re at school you aren’t interested in fellow pupil’s racial origins unless you’re from a family with EDL\national front leanings. My grandchildren are primary school age and interested in their friends cultural/faith/race. Their schools are now very mixed where 30years ago when their parents were attending, the pupils were predominantly white british

I suspect that your grandchildren are at a school where cultural and racial differences are obvious. I doubt that this obtained 40 or 50 years ago. There is nothing in Mr Sharp's appearance which marks him out from being any different from other white British people, so unless he was an obviously practising Jew I see no reason why his fellow pupils would be aware.

Is he a practising Jew? Does anyone know?

Against my better judgement I will respond to you one final time volver.

You are now being paranoid. There has been no PM’s to me over this. I have no idea who you’re referring to regarding the other poster and I’m not colluding with anyone. You, however, deliberately and childishly called me tickybird. Another poster made a genuine mistake and, of course, you took the opportunity to make a point of doing likewise. This was a serious discussion but you, as is your wont, decided to turn it into a thread about you. Give it a rest.

Oreo

Rowson has stated that he knew Sharp was Jewish so that’s that.
why must a poster make this thread all about themself I wonder?
Yes it is an anti-semitic trope, the octopus and I know it’s been used now and then for other things but it’s mainly used about Jewish people.Even the old cartoon depicting Standard Oil as an octopus had Jewish owners, the Rockefellers and later the Nazi ones.Together with the name Goldman Sachs, an octopus/squid grasping gold coins, a pig, and heavily exaggerated Jewish features on the drawing of Sharp himself all point to anti-Semitism. Which the article in The Guardian is now pointing out.

I don’t know where you’ve been Oreo, but it’s clearly not involved keeping an eye on political satire in caricatures. There are lots of depictions of politicians with octopus tentacles not related to anti-semitism, it’s not used ‘now and then’ at all. Just Google Donald Trump octopus, and there are loads, just on him.

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MaizieD I don’t believe it’s accurate to say when you’re at school you aren’t interested in fellow pupil’s racial origins unless you’re from a family with EDL\national front leanings. My grandchildren are primary school age and interested in their friends cultural/faith/race. Their schools are now very mixed where 30years ago when their parents were attending, the pupils were predominantly white british

volver said:
Later, a more measured discussion agreed that in fact it wasn’t an antisemitic image at all

I don't know who agreed but, if they did, this is just a Gransnet forum and their views, while interesting, are hardly conclusive evidence.
It has been established by experts, other than Gransnetters, that it is anti-semitic imagery.
A pig is also offensive.
A reference to Goldman-Sachs too.

Hardly coincidence, surely?

MaizieD said: Why?
When you're at school you don't take an interest in your fellow pupils' racial origins. Unless, of course, you're from the sort of family to which things like that matter, and matter not in a good way

Rowson:
He described the cartoon as a failure on many levels, adding that he attended school with Mr Sharp and knew he was Jewish, but "his Jewishness never crossed my mind as I drew him".

Subliminal anti-semitism?

You mean everybody isn't hanging on my every word?

What a disappointment...🥹

Shanie2

You are funny.
Definition
someone who likes to dominate others within a group

To the point, thank you Shanie2

Dickens at 18.58 today good analytical pondering .
It’s a conundrum that such an experienced cartoonist didn’t realise what he was portraying. Very odd that no one at the Guardian realised. It’s notable that both cartoonist and Guardian have apologised and acknowledged it’s anti semitic. My view is this whole sorry episode reflects the extent of casual anti semitism

Dickens

Callistemon21

I'm not sure about the conspiracy story

It crossed my mind as a possibility but I don't think I'd subscribe to it.
We have no idea what their relationship was at school either.

However, it is inconceivable that Rowson did not know that Sharp is Jewish, also that he unknowingly depicted anti-semitic references. Rowson is not stupid.

However, it is inconceivable that Rowson did not know that Sharp is Jewish, also that he unknowingly depicted anti-semitic references. Rowson is not stupid.

This is what I'm struggling with. Rowson is not stupid, far from it.

But to knowingly caricature Sharp as the 'traditional' Jewish ogre of past cartoons and caricatures - and believe at the same time that no-one would pick up on it would mean that he's either antisemitic and doesn't care, or isn't, but is so assured of his reputation as a cartoonist that he assumed he could blag his way out of such accusations.

A third alternative that occurred to me, remembering past caricatures of politicians and various other high-profile figures, and the often grotesque, distorted depictions of them that he creates... is that he created Sharp using the same formula without any anti-Jewish malice. But - I assume all cartoonists give a final appraisal of their work, adding or subtracting a touch here and there and then pondering the final result. I know Rowson is, as Wiki point out, scathing and graphic in his style, however he's also an educated man, and it's a tad difficult, knowing how politically astute the man is, to believe that he didn't hold up his work for a final appraisal and think... hmm, hang on a minute...

... if you see what I mean?

I just don't know quite what to think. I saw what a lot of other people saw, and am alert to antisemitic tropes due to having extended family who are Jewish. I know my late stepmother suffered discrimination back in the 50s when she worked for the Home Office. It was quite upsetting to hear about her experience because she was so matter-of-fact about it - and 'forgiving'.

Hmm.

Perhaps a case of "publish and be damned"?

However, it really has shifted the focus on this.

Rowson has stated that he knew Sharp was Jewish so that’s that.
why must a poster make this thread all about themself I wonder?
Yes it is an anti-semitic trope, the octopus and I know it’s been used now and then for other things but it’s mainly used about Jewish people.Even the old cartoon depicting Standard Oil as an octopus had Jewish owners, the Rockefellers and later the Nazi ones.Together with the name Goldman Sachs, an octopus/squid grasping gold coins, a pig, and heavily exaggerated Jewish features on the drawing of Sharp himself all point to anti-Semitism. Which the article in The Guardian is now pointing out.

tickingbird

No volver dear you were the one hanging everything on the Octopus. However, I didn’t call you the likes of you; I stated it. Feel free regarding the penultimate sentence of my previous post as I’m not getting into it with you.

The octopus/squid isn’t a distraction, its central. Near the start of the thread, there were complaints that the inclusion of a squid was a well known antisemitic image. I said I had not idea why and there were several heated exclamations along the lines of “you should know” or “look it up”. Later, a more measured discussion agreed that in fact it wasn’t an antisemitic image at all.

So what started out as an image which people considered was OBVIOUSLY an antisemitic image, turned out not to be. So one might conclude that some people see prejudice everywhere even when none exists.

Another thing I noticed. A sudden spate of certain forms of language. “You are funny”; “Volver dear”; that kind of thing. A sudden obsession with reporting…. Another poster used to try that, I suspect because she thought it annoyed me. The exact same wording. Of course she’s stopped that now, but a suspicious person “acting the victim” might think there was collusion and PM’ing going on. That would never happen of course. It would be silly.

Callistemon21

^I'm not sure about the conspiracy story^

It crossed my mind as a possibility but I don't think I'd subscribe to it.
We have no idea what their relationship was at school either.

However, it is inconceivable that Rowson did not know that Sharp is Jewish, also that he unknowingly depicted anti-semitic references. Rowson is not stupid.

However, it is inconceivable that Rowson did not know that Sharp is Jewish, also that he unknowingly depicted anti-semitic references. Rowson is not stupid.

This is what I'm struggling with. Rowson is not stupid, far from it.

But to knowingly caricature Sharp as the 'traditional' Jewish ogre of past cartoons and caricatures - and believe at the same time that no-one would pick up on it would mean that he's either antisemitic and doesn't care, or isn't, but is so assured of his reputation as a cartoonist that he assumed he could blag his way out of such accusations.

A third alternative that occurred to me, remembering past caricatures of politicians and various other high-profile figures, and the often grotesque, distorted depictions of them that he creates... is that he created Sharp using the same formula without any anti-Jewish malice. But - I assume all cartoonists give a final appraisal of their work, adding or subtracting a touch here and there and then pondering the final result. I know Rowson is, as Wiki point out, scathing and graphic in his style, however he's also an educated man, and it's a tad difficult, knowing how politically astute the man is, to believe that he didn't hold up his work for a final appraisal and think... hmm, hang on a minute...

... if you see what I mean?

I just don't know quite what to think. I saw what a lot of other people saw, and am alert to antisemitic tropes due to having extended family who are Jewish. I know my late stepmother suffered discrimination back in the 50s when she worked for the Home Office. It was quite upsetting to hear about her experience because she was so matter-of-fact about it - and 'forgiving'.

Hmm.

No volver dear you were the one hanging everything on the Octopus. However, I didn’t call you the likes of you; I stated it. Feel free regarding the penultimate sentence of my previous post as I’m not getting into it with you.

You called me the likes of you.

You think I'm trying to trivialise something you take seriously.

You're hanging everything on the octopus?

You'd know if I reported you because I'd tell you.

And you think I'm the one acting the victim?

Shanie and Oreo thank you for your supportive posts.

volver3 please stop acting the victim. It isn’t a matter of difference of opinion. You, thinking it was all a bit of fun, made a comment along the lines of “oh so we can’t show an Octopus in a cartoon now”. You were seeking to trivialise something I find quite sinister. Yes, it may just be an offensive cartoon but that’s not the point - it’s the fact that a national newspaper was emboldened enough to print it. Yes I did use the word pathetic and stand by it. You sought to make out all the fuss was over an Octopus and you know damn well that’s not the case and I found that comment pathetic. Report me, you know it’s water off a duck’s back.

Incidentally, I did enjoy the tennis.

I think it's likely he did know, what with the Goldmann Sachs briefcase. However, the conversations that have resulted have been valuable especially following the racism of Abbot.

MaizieD

^However, it is inconceivable that Rowson did not know that Sharp is Jewish,^

Why?

When you're at school you don't take an interest in your fellow pupils' racial origins. Unless, of course, you're from the sort of family to which things like that matter, and matter not in a good way.

Anyway, all this fuss has now alerted far more people to Sharp's Jewish heritage and that could turn out quite unpleasantly for him...

I thought it was a Merchant Taylor school?

I'm talking about religion, not race.
School assemblies were non-inclusive 50+ years ago.

However, it is inconceivable that Rowson did not know that Sharp is Jewish,

Why?

When you're at school you don't take an interest in your fellow pupils' racial origins. Unless, of course, you're from the sort of family to which things like that matter, and matter not in a good way.

Anyway, all this fuss has now alerted far more people to Sharp's Jewish heritage and that could turn out quite unpleasantly for him...

I'm not sure about the conspiracy story

It crossed my mind as a possibility but I don't think I'd subscribe to it.
We have no idea what their relationship was at school either.

However, it is inconceivable that Rowson did not know that Sharp is Jewish, also that he unknowingly depicted anti-semitic references. Rowson is not stupid.

You are funny.
Definition
someone who likes to dominate others within a group

Cock of the walk now, is it?

See these "deplorable efforts"? Is it pointing out the mistakes?

I'm sure tickybird will agree.

I believe tickybird was referring to the deplorable efforts used [not the writer thenselves] to make light of the cartoon. Anyway I have been warned to ignore, not that I didn't recognise a cock of the walk type of tactic.

The Guardian removed the cartoon, the cartoonist apologised. In my opinion that suggests they considered it out of order.

I'm not sure about the conspiracy story.

My father's family were also Jewish tickybird. I understand.

M0nica

To quote a phrase, The Guardian has been hoist by its own petard, or we could say it has scored an own goal.

By publishing this egregiously anti-semitic cartoon, it has completely diverted attention from the issue that led to the cartoon in the first place. Perhaps the cartoonist is on Richard Sharp's side after all, they were at school together. He draws and the Guardian publishes this offensive cartoon and everyone stops talking about the issue and talking about anti-semitism, making Richard Sharp a focus of sympathy and support. Any conspiracy theorists willing to pick this up and run with it?

Yes, that crossed my mind, M0nica.

I was thinking that as I caught up with this thread and was composing a post but you have already said it.

To quote a phrase, The Guardian has been hoist by its own petard, or we could say it has scored an own goal.

By publishing this egregiously anti-semitic cartoon, it has completely diverted attention from the issue that led to the cartoon in the first place. Perhaps the cartoonist is on Richard Sharp's side after all, they were at school together. He draws and the Guardian publishes this offensive cartoon and everyone stops talking about the issue and talking about anti-semitism, making Richard Sharp a focus of sympathy and support. Any conspiracy theorists willing to pick this up and run with it?

Farzanah

volver3

You are entitled to your opinion.

Mine is different.

Mine also Volver.

Some of us (a few) did not see this as anti semitic and have explained our reasons. Most did. Surely it’s not necessary to call those that didn’t “pathetic” nor was it obvious in plain sight. I didn’t know Sharp was Jewish, I also do consider myself a fair minded and decent person, and not agreeing with some points of view on this doesn’t make me otherwise.

I agree that now Sharp is seen a victim in the whole affair, it diverts attention from the legitimate concerns around his and other suspect political appointments.

Just to let you know that I see this, Farzanah.