Strictly Cheese Sandwiches

I'm not sure we disagree about nutrition, M0nica.

Not all nutritionus foods are expensive.

When it's been argued that carrots, cabbage and onions are relatively cheap, the excuse is given that people can't cook them because they can't afford the cooking power or don't have anything to cook with. If this is true it's disastrous as well as being diffcult to understand. My paternal grandparents were both from large, poor families but they had cooking facilities.

How did Irish peasants whose staple was potatoes (high carb but jolly good food for all that) manage? They presumably cooked the potatoes they ate.

Throughout the world, people's staples are high carb foods but that hasn't made people fat until recently.

Etc, etc. On average, people have never been so well off in this country so what the hell is going on?

My husband has gone into an Alzheimer’s home …permanently, because after six years of looking after him at home …and the previous 21 years looking after him post his stroke …I had my third stroke. His pensions kept our home going ….now I hand over a thousand pound a month to the council for his care…. so I live on cheese sandwiches and beans on toast . I can swear like a trooper , but I cannot yet find a word strong enough to explain away Ann Widdecombe .
If I was a believer ….I would wish her in hell!!

missdeke

Although I think the remark is inappropriate to say the least, but I must admit I thought she was referring to the modern habit of always buying sandwiches instead of making your own.

If this is so it changes the complexion of the whole issue. Funny that.

Baggs

Just watched the clip of that comment as I hadn't come across this until now. The clip includes a comment from another person that there are starving babies in the UK because their parents can't afford formula milk.

Starving? I do not believe this.

That aside, it is rather a ridiculous comment AW made, but I also think it was a ridiculous example. The chairperson said something about "all the ingredients of a cheese sandwich" which suggests to me that it wasn't just a plain cheese sandwich that was being talked about.

I don’t know the full story on this but I can’t see much wrong in what AW said. Cheese is massively expensive right now. I bought some mature cheddar yesterday and it was over £5. I think I heard on the news yesterday that cheese has gone up 25%.

There have been plenty of times in my life when we have had to cut back and use cheaper alternatives. You can make a very nice egg sandwich, tinned tuna is cheap, I bought some spicy chicken bits yesterday for £1.99 and they made us sandwiches yesterday and again today. I sometimes buy frozen chicken livers in a tub and defrost and make lush pate in the microwave. Very quick and easy and last time I bought some they cost about £1.

Imagine just a few years ago having a discussion about whether eating cheese sandwiches was a luxury to be afforded by the few not the many
The depths of division and poverty that Conservative driven austerity has plunged us into, is indeed palpable
My daughter is a teacher and has taken cereal bars to school for her six year old pupils, for quite a few years, who have had no breakfast and possibly no dinner the night before
She now wraps up sandwiches for their lunch too. Of course, she can ill afford it herself and so we help with her efforts
This is not acceptable in the sixth richest country in the world and trying to somehow justify families going hungry today is beyond disgraceful
I despair

Baggs With all respect, have you really not been reading any of the information in the media about Ultra Processed Foods (UPF). It is not just that the foods are high in carbpohydrates, but high in highly refined and processed carbohydrated. A potato contains only one ingedient, dittto rice, cassava, or any other basic foodstuff.

A loaf of bread made the traditional way by a baker contains flour, yeast, salt and some water. Here is a list of ingredients from a popular mass-produced supermarket loaf
Wheat Flour [with Calcium, Iron, Niacin (B3) and Thiamin (B1)], Water, Yeast, Salt, Vegetable Oils (Sunflower, Rapeseed and Sustainable Palm in varying proportions), Soya Flour, Emulsifiers: E472e, E481; Preservative: Calcium Propionate; Flour Treatment Agent: Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C)

This is why people living on UPFs are getting obese, it is all the other ingredients mentioned after flour, yeast and water, many of which no one has heard of, you cannot buy in the shops and their purpose is more to make the bread, easier and quicker to produce, make it last longer on the shelf and attracts mould because ot will go mouldy long before it has a chance to go stale.

I recommend: Ultra-Processed People Why Do We All Eat Stuff That Isn’t Food … and Why Can’t We Stop? by Chris van Tulleken

M0nica

Baggs With all respect, have you really not been reading any of the information in the media about Ultra Processed Foods (UPF). It is not just that the foods are high in carbpohydrates, but high in highly refined and processed carbohydrated. A potato contains only one ingedient, dittto rice, cassava, or any other basic foodstuff.

A loaf of bread made the traditional way by a baker contains flour, yeast, salt and some water. Here is a list of ingredients from a popular mass-produced supermarket loaf
Wheat Flour [with Calcium, Iron, Niacin (B3) and Thiamin (B1)], Water, Yeast, Salt, Vegetable Oils (Sunflower, Rapeseed and Sustainable Palm in varying proportions), Soya Flour, Emulsifiers: E472e, E481; Preservative: Calcium Propionate; Flour Treatment Agent: Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C)

This is why people living on UPFs are getting obese, it is all the other ingredients mentioned after flour, yeast and water, many of which no one has heard of, you cannot buy in the shops and their purpose is more to make the bread, easier and quicker to produce, make it last longer on the shelf and attracts mould because ot will go mouldy long before it has a chance to go stale.

I recommend: Ultra-Processed People Why Do We All Eat Stuff That Isn’t Food … and Why Can’t We Stop? by Chris van Tulleken

Makes a very thought provoking read, but I bet that Ann Widdecombe hasn’t read it!

Saggi

My husband has gone into an Alzheimer’s home …permanently, because after six years of looking after him at home …and the previous 21 years looking after him post his stroke …I had my third stroke. His pensions kept our home going ….now I hand over a thousand pound a month to the council for his care…. so I live on cheese sandwiches and beans on toast . I can swear like a trooper , but I cannot yet find a word strong enough to explain away Ann Widdecombe .
If I was a believer ….I would wish her in hell!!

That is actually very cheap. My Mum’s care home costs were nearly £1,000 a WEEK!

I'm sorry for your troubles Saggi
Social care should absolutely be a priority, it will affect all of us at some point
Sending you all my good wishes

Snorkel

My brother and myself frequently ate sauce sandwiches. Red for him, brown for me, or even salad cream. No chance of cheese or ham. This was in the late sixties. My father was the only one working. His weekly wage was £22.00.

Same here. I once made myself sick on salad cream sandwiches and couldn’t touch the stuff for many years. 🤮. That was the sixties too.

Our neighbours had 8 kids and they lived on condensed milk sandwiches sprinkled with sugar. There were no benefits in those days.

Quite different now - Early years kids at school all now get free school meals, there are free breakfast clubs, there was talk of giving kids free meal vouchers in the school holidays too. There are also quite generous child benefits, top ups and help for people on low incomes.

Personally I would be ashamed to send a child out in the morning with no breakfast. An egg, some toast, a bowl of porridge costs pence. If they choose to spend their Child Benefit on stuff other than their kids, that’s their choice but I couldn’t do it.

When I was a young Mum money was very tight and I was often first in the PO queue on a Monday morning to get my child allowance but my kids never, ever left our house with an empty belly and we wouldn’t expect others to feed them.

She is an awful woman with horrible opinions. Remember her as Home Secretary saying pregnant prisoners were to be shackled while giving birth.
A comedy act on Strictly has given her vileness a new lease of life. Do wish she wasn’t given air time.

Chocolatelovinggran

Does Ms Widdecombe have any helpful ideas as to what people might eat instead?

I wish someone on that panel had asked her that question

Primrose53 Do tell about these generous child benefits and top ups. Go on!

Incidentally, when did you last buy an egg? Or cook it? There is no way an egg can be bought for pence ... and most people don't eat raw eggs. In case the news hasn't reached your bubble yet, gas and electricity prices have increased.

Child Benefit doesn't go very far, when parents have to feed and clothe their children. Do you actually have any idea how much it is?

By the way, you've contradicted yourself in the same post. You've claimed that there were no benefits in those days, but then mention child allowance. You also forgot to mention the child tax allowance.

Family Allowance started in 1945, and was not paid for the eldest child, only the second child onwards.

The latest ONS figures www.gov.uk/government/statistics/households-below-average-income-for-financial-years-ending-1995-to-2022/households-below-average-income-an-analysis-of-the-uk-income-distribution-fye-1995-to-fye-2022#long-term-trends-data-prior-to-fye-1995-are-not-national-statistics show that the bottom 10% of families with 2 children have incomes from all sources, including benfits of under £20,450. That is under £20,450, not of £20,450. So some will have incomes well below that amount.

In 2022 average rents for a family house, from government staitics was around £800, far more in London, www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/housing/bulletins/privaterentalmarketsummarystatisticsinengland/april2021tomarch2022. However the rapid rise in private rents over the last year suggest that this figure has risen and thatt average UK rents are now over £1,000 a month, in London, over £2,500, www.theguardian.com/money/2023/apr/28/average-monthly-rents-hit-2500-in-london-and-1190-for-rest-of-uk, average energy bills for a 4-5 person household are around £3,500 a year - and poorer families live in the worst housing with poorest insulation standards.www.britishgas.co.uk/energy/guides/average-bill.html.

This means that for the average family in a rental property, and low income families are invariably in rental property, it will cost them £15,500 just for rent and energy.

If they are on the maximum income of the bottom 10%, £20,450, After rent and energy bills, (£12,000 + £3.500) they will have £5,000 a year, less than £100 a week to cover everything else, including food for a family of 4, not to mention clothing, working costs (travel and clothing), Council tax, even if on CTB, you pays some council tax.

For those households on incomes below £20, 450, the situation will be even more dire.

Perhaps, Primrose or others with her view can suggest a secure food budget and menu plan for a household trying to feed 4 people on, say, £50 a week, while assuming that the cooking skills, dietary tastes and time available for food shopping are the average for all households in the UK.

I have carefully given sources for all my figures, so that there can be no query about soundness of my sources.

Thank you MOnica.

missdeke

Although I think the remark is inappropriate to say the least, but I must admit I thought she was referring to the modern habit of always buying sandwiches instead of making your own.

No evidence of that whatsoever of this in what she said.

As said above 'Ann Widdecombe is an embittered, passed over politician who doesn't know what she is talking about' - vile.

When AW was on Strictly Come Dancing, I admired her feisty rebuttals of the Judge's harsh words, however in this context, in the current food poverty situation, I agree with LadyHD's 'harsh' words. As a woman who publicly claims to be Christian, maybe AW should ponder the words 'Feed my lambs, feed my sheep'?
Enjoying the feeble attempts at 'mitigation' of her comment. (Had forgotten about the decision to handcuff pregnant prisoners in labour.)

One of my favourite desserts as a child was what we called 'pink pudding' - essentially a bowl of hot raspberry flavoured blancmange. We weren't poor, it was just something quick to make. My mum told me though that she knew a poor family when she was young for whom the biggest treat was 'hot ice cream' - a bowl of plain sweetened white sauce made with just cornflour, milk and sugar!
My mum trained as a cookery teacher in the years immediately after the war when there was still rationing. I'm glad she taught me the art of cooking on a budget and making good nutritious simple meals. Sadly many of those skills have been lost as schools teach students to 'design products' to meet a brief, rather than teaching basic cooking skills.

A cheese sandwich is nutritious and fairly basic. It contains carbs, fat and protein.

Widdecombe's comment was on "Politics Live". The topic being discussed was the huge rise in basic foodstuffs, such as bread margarine/butter and cheese.

Being able to make a cheese sandwich doesn't have anything to do with cooking skills. It has everything to do with being able to afford basic ingredients.

The episode isn't on iPlayer yet, so I can't check, but I don't remember take-aways being discussed. If that was Widecombe's point, why didn't she suggest people make their own sandwiches rather than buying them from take aways?

growstuff

Primrose53 Do tell about these generous child benefits and top ups. Go on!

Incidentally, when did you last buy an egg? Or cook it? There is no way an egg can be bought for pence ... and most people don't eat raw eggs. In case the news hasn't reached your bubble yet, gas and electricity prices have increased.

Child Benefit doesn't go very far, when parents have to feed and clothe their children. Do you actually have any idea how much it is?

Tesco free range eggs work out at 30p each. I often buy them cheaper than that because we have several smallholders around the village. A boiled egg takes 4 mins to cook so hardly a big dent in electricity costs, compared to TVs, tumble dryers, phone chargers etc.

A boiled egg and a couple of slices of toast is a great start to the day for a child. Or scrambled, or poached or fried come to that!

M0nica

Family Allowance started in 1945, and was not paid for the eldest child, only the second child onwards.

The latest ONS figures www.gov.uk/government/statistics/households-below-average-income-for-financial-years-ending-1995-to-2022/households-below-average-income-an-analysis-of-the-uk-income-distribution-fye-1995-to-fye-2022#long-term-trends-data-prior-to-fye-1995-are-not-national-statistics show that the bottom 10% of families with 2 children have incomes from all sources, including benfits of under £20,450. That is under £20,450, not of £20,450. So some will have incomes well below that amount.

In 2022 average rents for a family house, from government staitics was around £800, far more in London, www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/housing/bulletins/privaterentalmarketsummarystatisticsinengland/april2021tomarch2022. However the rapid rise in private rents over the last year suggest that this figure has risen and thatt average UK rents are now over £1,000 a month, in London, over £2,500, www.theguardian.com/money/2023/apr/28/average-monthly-rents-hit-2500-in-london-and-1190-for-rest-of-uk, average energy bills for a 4-5 person household are around £3,500 a year - and poorer families live in the worst housing with poorest insulation standards.www.britishgas.co.uk/energy/guides/average-bill.html.

This means that for the average family in a rental property, and low income families are invariably in rental property, it will cost them £15,500 just for rent and energy.

If they are on the maximum income of the bottom 10%, £20,450, After rent and energy bills, (£12,000 + £3.500) they will have £5,000 a year, less than £100 a week to cover everything else, including food for a family of 4, not to mention clothing, working costs (travel and clothing), Council tax, even if on CTB, you pays some council tax.

For those households on incomes below £20, 450, the situation will be even more dire.

Perhaps, Primrose or others with her view can suggest a secure food budget and menu plan for a household trying to feed 4 people on, say, £50 a week, while assuming that the cooking skills, dietary tastes and time available for food shopping are the average for all households in the UK.

I have carefully given sources for all my figures, so that there can be no query about soundness of my sources.

Never have there been so many books, videos and TV programmes about making healthy food on a budget. I have picked loads up in charity shops ….. last night I did a recipe from Jack Monroe’s book. Macaroni cheese with bacon and spinach. Tasty, filling and not expensive.

I have a couple by Greg Wallace and somebody else from TV and they look nice too.

People could at least try instead of relying on fast foods and ready meals. I was in our village shop recently and a young Mum with 3 kids came in and bought pre packed sandwiches for all 4 of them and they cost her £14!! I could never have afforded to do that when mine were young and though I could afford to do that now, I just wouldn’t because it is a dreadful waste of money.

Nellietheelephant

Anyone ever had condensed milk sandwiches? Absolutely delish, and fed to me as a treat in the staff kitchen when my mother visited some rather posh people. Days, eh?

Aren't they called connie onnies? A friend who came from Morecambe I think said that was what they were called.

People could at least try instead of relying on fast foods and ready meals.

You have absolutely no way of knowing that, Primrose53.

I was in our village shop recently and a young Mum with 3 kids came in and bought pre packed sandwiches for all 4 of them and they cost her £14!!

So what?

Do you know her personal circumstances? Exactly what her income is?

Unless you happen to know that she has very little income you are making a massive assumption here and using it to demonise people who are so poor that they regularly miss meals (see the Resolution Foundation graphic I posted earlier).

and though I could afford to do that now, I just wouldn’t because it is a dreadful waste of money.

That's your choice, fair enough. But there is nothing in the slightest bit virtuous about being thrifty when you're not forced into it by poverty. In fact, thinking of my late in-laws, they went for the cheapest, often quite nasty, foodstuffs although they were quite well off and left very substantial amounts of money when they died... I think it was habitual after impoverished 1930s upbringings, but it wasn't very nice...

JaneJudge

Quite HPQ, she really isn't a very nice person.

I find the everyone buys their sandwiches rather than making them now, a bit weird too. As an observation I would say those people are in the minority. None of us would have time at my work to leave during our breaks to go and fetch a sandwich. All people take a packed lunch or ready cooked meal to reheat.

Times have changed! When I worked in London 60s - 80s there were several sandwich bars I frequented because the choice was amazing; honey cream cheese and walnuts, beautiful cold beef, pastrami etc etc and a wide choice of bread or rolls.

Back then we did take our lunch hours. Italian cafes for lasagne or cannelloni, or a vegetarian restaurant near St Pauls.

When first started work we got 3 shillings luncheon vouchers (15p in decimal). This would buy me a main course, dessert and coffee. Hard to imagine now.