Can a woman have a penis?

LadyHonoriaDedlock

Lets take this in short steps.

1. If an individual who was recorded as female at birth self-identifies as male, but takes no further action, is that individual a man or a woman?

2, If that individual undertakes gender alignment surgery including the construction of a surrogate penis, is that individual a man or a woman?

If your answer to 2 is 'a woman' then the individual is a woman who has a penis.

If your answer to either 1 or 2 was 'a man' then let's ask a couple more questions.

3. If an individual who was recorded as male at birth self-identifies as female, but takes no further action, is that individual a man or a woman?

If your answer to 3 is 'a woman' then once again the individual is a woman with a penis. Otherwise

4. If that individual undertakes gender alignment surgery including the construction of a vagina and clitoris from the penile tissue, is the individual then a man or a woman?

If your answer to 4 is 'a man' then presumably you don't believe that the surgical construction of primary sexual organs changes the individual's gender, so logically you should accept the individual in question 2 as a woman with a penis.

Your question was answered logically on page1 maddyone

I realise that this leaves those of you who believe transmen are women with problems. The only solution to these being that a constructed penis is not a genuine penis. Which is I believe splitting hairs. The fact remains that if you believe transwomen are men and transmen are women. Some women have a penis, genuine or constructed wasn't mentioned.

That's the problem with trying to set rules and discriminate. It comes back to bite you sometimes.

In what way does it bite me. Do you understand the process for ftm surgery, and how many avoid it because of the terrible health consequences, transmen detail those complications frequently, sorry but what happens is not in anyway comparable to a penis.

Sex segregated places are not discrimination they are.part of equality law.

The logic in Lady HD's post comes with whether the skin graft is a penis or not. Personally, I'm not sure that these arguments get very far, as our own definitions are always ideologically based and go round in circles. IMO if someone lost an ear and had a new one made of a skin graft for cosmetic purposes or to balance their spectacles, it would only be an ear if it enabled them to hear because of it. If it were attached to a hearing aid that needed to be primed in order for the graft to operate then it wouldn't be an ear. Yes, it would be referred to as such for ease of reference, but it wouldn't be an ear, any more than a wooden leg is really a leg.

In any case, so few transwomen have had surgery that all this does is shift the debate away from the issues that matter - which are around the fact that people with functional penises are forcing themselves into women's spaces, and are being allowed to do so by law and are being supported in their endeavours by misogynists of both sexes. I don't care what so-called 'gender' they identify into - I don't believe that people with penises should be allowed to trespass into places where women and girls consider themselves to be vulnerable.

Galaxy

In what way does it bite me. Do you understand the process for ftm surgery, and how many avoid it because of the terrible health consequences, transmen detail those complications frequently, sorry but what happens is not in anyway comparable to a penis.

I understand it. It happens. Maybe not often. But a woman can have a penis if she wants one.
It is the sheer illogicality of maintaining a woman can't because it's difficult (so what? lots of things are difficult). When obviously they can.
Like much surgery it will become less difficult and more common as skills progress. No one had a replacement hip 60years ago. Few people had replacement knees until 30 years ago. Now there's loads of them. Who knows constructing a penis might become more common and simpler.
So a woman can have a penis which ever way you look at it.

If a knee replacement fails (as many do) is the replacement not a knee, but something else?
If the person considers it a penis isn't it one?

No. I can consider all sorts of things that arent actually true.
I also think pretending that people are talking about transmen when in fact they are talking about transwomen as everyone knows is a bit like Boris Johnsons pretending he didnt understand the lockdown guidance.
As I said previously the labour party seem to have a grip on the answer to that question. Although am hoping that that Starmer isnt just sending out the women to answer that question

Callistemon21

To coin a phrase: too sensible for GN maddyone

Thanks Doodle. And thanks Galaxy, mollygo, maddyone, dickens, fanny and many others for keeping calm and carrying on.

VioletSky, a forum where what you define as ‘hate speech ‘ from gender critical women is no platforming the majority. Isn’t that a big fascist and preventing free speech?

I like Annalise Dodds and I’m relieved she’s speaking sense

I am a bit agog to be honest Iam64, but relieved, it was going to be used as a stick to beat them with so am hoping this will stop that. I did think no one can have watched grown adults refusing to say whether Isla Bryson was a Male and think this is an effective approach to take before an election.

Doodledog misrepresenting intersectional feminism really isn't acceptable Realistically a forum for self-declared Intersectional Feminists is unlikely to be anything other than biased in favour of the idea that women are not important as a group - that’s the tenet that underpins Intersectional Feminism.
That really isn't true.
Intersectional feminism recognises that women as a group experience discrimination and inequality, but the levels of inequality and discrimination are not equal within the group. It means that some women need to accept that they are more privileged than others. For some women that is difficult. But recognising that privilege does not mean intersectional feminists do not campaign for, and fight with, their less privileged sisters. It means in fact that they do so more, because they recognise the inequality which exists. The problem needs to be seen and acknowledged before it can be dealt with.

Galaxy

No. I can consider all sorts of things that arent actually true.
I also think pretending that people are talking about transmen when in fact they are talking about transwomen as everyone knows is a bit like Boris Johnsons pretending he didnt understand the lockdown guidance.
As I said previously the labour party seem to have a grip on the answer to that question. Although am hoping that that Starmer isnt just sending out the women to answer that question

But that's the advantage of not really caring (or wanting to know) what's in someone's pants.
If someone asked me "Can a woman have a penis?" I would be absolutely honest and say I don't know.
Because woman is a gender term and if someone looks like a woman I have no idea what's in their pants.

Off the subject a bit I've just read a book and apparently in the Frontier West of America young boys were hired to dress and dance as women in bars because there were so few women living there. The history of trans and cross dressing is fascinating.

I am all for recognising that not all women are treated equally (assuming that I fall into the Some Women category to which you allude?) Where I part company with IF is that it brings men under the umbrella of 'women's issues' which, IMO, means that it is not a feminist movement but a humanist/egalitarian/socialist one (delete according to your ideological viewpoint), and male rights always trump women's ones, whether the males in question 'identify' as such or not.

But we've been here before, so let's not go down that diversionary route?

Has anyone said that transwomen are women with problems Glorianny? The answer of course is no because trans women aren't women.

The 'rules' you've mentioned are set by nature, by biology and cannot be changed so in to answer maddyone's question once again, no a woman cannot have a penis. A trans man can have a constructed penis but someone born as female cannot have one because they are female.

Why is saying a constructed penis is not a penis splitting hairs? It's you whose splitting hairs.

I agree with you that the history of trans and cross dressing is fascinating Glorianny, but fail to see the relevance to this discussion TBH, unless the boys you referred too made use of female toilets while dressed as women, which I doubt.

Where can I get one of the phrasebooks that seem to be handed out to members of the trans lobby, please? I assume that there is one, as they all speak in the same cliches. 'I don't care about what is in someone's pants' is the one being used most on this thread, but there are many more, and they are not just things that have caught on on GN (as happens on all forums), but used by the trans lobby wherever you find them.

Accusations of homophobia, racism, Section 28, the 1970s, references to suffragettes and the Civil Rights movement (handily covering the UK and US at a stroke), hints at Nazi ideology, 'be kind', arguments against them equalling 'silencing' and 'shutting down', threats to walk away from difficult questions (the No Debate thing) - it goes on and on (and on!)

I have just read quite an interesting analysis about the whole oh you want to check my genitals when women are stating their boundaries. The analysis was suggesting that there is quite a lot of aggression present in that response, women arent raped by noses or elbows they are raped by a males penis, pointing this out is actually a discussion of Male violence something which makes people uncomfortable.

Doodledog

I am all for recognising that not all women are treated equally (assuming that I fall into the Some Women category to which you allude?) Where I part company with IF is that it brings men under the umbrella of 'women's issues' which, IMO, means that it is not a feminist movement but a humanist/egalitarian/socialist one (delete according to your ideological viewpoint), and male rights always trump women's ones, whether the males in question 'identify' as such or not.

But we've been here before, so let's not go down that diversionary route?

So you are at a meeting of intersectional women Doodledog. Say staging a protest on International Women's Day. There are a few people there who are "butch". Do you ask if they are men? Do you demand to see their genitals? Or do you behave like any normal person and accept them as women? If you do so are you then betraying feminism in some way? Because they may be transwomen.

There have been cross dressers for years and years, they have gone about their daily lives peacefully.

Unfortunately we are now in the situation where a small percentage of the trans lobby and they are more likely to be trans women are aggressive both verbally and physically in putting over their rights . These are the people giving the trans community a bad name.

The abuse that J K Rowling and those associated with her is appalling. The latest being an Italian Restaurant owner who’s establishment is featured in one of her Strike books he is being bombarded on trip advisor by damaging reviews, which have been traced back to a section of the trans lobby.

As a women, a sister, a mother of a daughter and a grandmother to granddaughters, all I ask is that our sex/gender is not eroded, our hard fought for rights are not eroded.

I want to be able to go into a clothing store changing room without having intact males occupying the cubicle next door. I want to be able to take them swimming or to the gym without intact males stripping off on the next bench.

Think about it, it’s not a lot to ask to have our rights protected is it?

Why would it matter if there were men present at a protest.

GrannyGravy13 The restaurant owner has been targeted ever since he held a fund raising dinner for JKR's charity Lumos last year for work in Ukraine. That tells you everything you need to know about these people. They'd rather a charity event didn't happen because they don't like JKR. She's featured his restaurant in her latest Strike novel, yet to be published, as a thank you to him. The fake reviews even extended to a recent 'experience' in one restaurant he had that has been closed for a year. They're too thick to even do their research before lying!

Glorianny

Galaxy

In what way does it bite me. Do you understand the process for ftm surgery, and how many avoid it because of the terrible health consequences, transmen detail those complications frequently, sorry but what happens is not in anyway comparable to a penis.

I understand it. It happens. Maybe not often. But a woman can have a penis if she wants one.
It is the sheer illogicality of maintaining a woman can't because it's difficult (so what? lots of things are difficult). When obviously they can.
Like much surgery it will become less difficult and more common as skills progress. No one had a replacement hip 60years ago. Few people had replacement knees until 30 years ago. Now there's loads of them. Who knows constructing a penis might become more common and simpler.
So a woman can have a penis which ever way you look at it.

If a knee replacement fails (as many do) is the replacement not a knee, but something else?
If the person considers it a penis isn't it one?

You are saying that if a woman has an artificial penis constructed and attached to her vulva, then that is a penis and she's a woman with a penis. Hold on I thought that was a transman, and transmen are men, or is that only sometimes? I've never heard of a woman who knows she's a woman and wants to remain a woman wanting an artificial penis surgically attached.

Glorianny

Doodledog

I am all for recognising that not all women are treated equally (assuming that I fall into the Some Women category to which you allude?) Where I part company with IF is that it brings men under the umbrella of 'women's issues' which, IMO, means that it is not a feminist movement but a humanist/egalitarian/socialist one (delete according to your ideological viewpoint), and male rights always trump women's ones, whether the males in question 'identify' as such or not.

But we've been here before, so let's not go down that diversionary route?

So you are at a meeting of intersectional women Doodledog. Say staging a protest on International Women's Day. There are a few people there who are "butch". Do you ask if they are men? Do you demand to see their genitals? Or do you behave like any normal person and accept them as women? If you do so are you then betraying feminism in some way? Because they may be transwomen.

What? Of course I don't ask if they are men! And to suggest that I would ask to see their genitals is ridiculous and insulting. I don't behave 'like' a normal person - I am a normal person, and wouldn't dream of doing anything of the kind.

I don't buy into gender woo, and would accept anyone as a person. I am not saying and have never said otherwise.

What I am saying is that men (or 'penis havers' if you prefer) should not be allowed into spaces reserved for women. Such spaces are only there for women who are ill, in a state of undress, or otherwise vulnerable, eg in hospital or prison where escape may be difficult. I appreciate that it is not always possible to be certain of someone's sex if they go out of their way to 'present as' the opposite one, but that's not the point. We have laws to protect the innocent from the ill-intentioned, and that means that some well-intentioned people get inconvenienced along the way. I couldn't invite myself into a neighbour's swimming pool if they had one, because it is their (hypothetical) space and not mine. I can't wander into a nursery or primary school uninvited, as I am not a parent of a young child. I wouldn't wander into a male changing room as I am a decent person (despite your implications above) and am aware that my presence might cause embarrassment. Or into the men's section of a synagogue or mosque. The list goes on. Respect for the boundaries of others is the mark of a 'normal person' and I like to acknowledge that as far as possible and treat people as I would like them to treat me.

Asking someone their sex and asking them to flash their genitals would outstep those boundaries by a country mile, as does saying you are a woman and entering a female space where women are undressed or otherwise vulnerable.

None of that is betraying feminism. Saying that men who dress as women should be able to access all areas (unless it can be proven on the spot that their presence might deter woman from attending) is absolutely betraying feminism, however. As is approving of allowing trainwomen to compete against women in sport, and to take women's places on all-female shortlists.

How laws are policed is not down to me (or any other member of the public) to worry about - we have a police force and a legislative system to do that.

Galaxy

Why would it matter if there were men present at a protest.

And this is also true - I was reeling at the insults in Glorianny's post so much that I overlooked the bleeding' obvious

Great post @ 12.17 Doodledog. Respect for the boundaries of others is the mark of a 'normal person' and I like to acknowledge that as far as possible and treat people as I would like them to treat me. it really couldn't be any clearer could it? Accept there are areas where you as an individual may not go, either by law or by respecting other's boundaries.

For me, it's the intersectional feminists who claim they are morally superior to 'other' feminists who betray feminism. The ones who appear to look down on those they consider to be gender critical simply because they want women's spaces protected and kept for women.

Who virtue signal with their constant rhetoric of how inclusive they are when in reality, they are no more inclusive than their fellow feminists.

This of course wouldn't be an issue would it if intact males weren't entering women's spaces and having an unfair advantage due to their biological sex when competing against women in sport.

It happens. It is happening. Women being confronted by a man's penis in their changing rooms because he's identifying as and/or claiming to be something he isn't; a woman.

I'm not interested in what someone has in their pants because I don't expect an intact male to be using the same facilities I'm using and if one is, at he very least I expect him to keep what he has 'in his pants' in his pants.

Great posts Doodledog and Smileless2012

Rosie51 I read that on JK Rowling’s Twitter feed, yes it’s a sad world when a charity event and it’s holders are subjected to abuse, as for them not knowing that one of the restaurants closed over a year ago, well…