Professor Kathleen Stock’s talk this evening at the Oxford Union was disrupted by hundreds of trans rights activists. She told the BBC is isn’t hate speech to say males can’t be women.
The talk seems to have been welcomed, with half the audience giving a standing ovation though chanting from trans activists outside could be heard.
If David Attenborough is arrested for shoplifting tomorrow it will be incredibly difficult to know which prison he should go to.
It's like some sort of fantasy world.
Although I have drifted into a reality where David Attenborough is a criminal 
Galaxy 😂
Yes the Jeffrey archer thing was again quite unpleasant
Sorry why was it unpleasant?
It is unpleasant because I was talking about my children. It is unpleasant to make snooty remarks about someone’s children at the best of times, but they read HP at eight and ten. Not many children of that age know much about ‘good literature’. I do, as it happens, but I still like a page turner too. As do most people I know. But never mind.
As for the ‘cop out’ thing - no, I don’t agree. If you (generic) are the one who wants to change things for your benefit and to the detriment of others, then you are the one who has the responsibility of making that acceptable to the people you are inconveniencing.
Believe me, I am far from desperate to convince you - you are not listening to anyone, but lashing out with rather silly insults. It wouldn’t matter if someone presented the perfect solution (which doesn’t exist) you would reject it with a sneer.
Glorianny If you as a woman doesn't know what 'living as a woman' means how the hell can any man have the slightest idea?
VioletSky Trans people do not have a choice if that is so how come there are so many detransitioners and others that just bitterly regret the body surgery they've had? There are trans people that definitely say it's a choice. Eddie Izzard is so choiceful that he can slip from girl mode into boy mode simply by changing heels for flats etc. If he ever gets another acting role you can guarantee he'll be slipping into boy mode for an extended period.
As many of you would guess I support free speech and am a member of the Free Speech Union. I have read the thread and there is no meeting of minds but discussion is good for everyone.
I thought some of you may listen to the Radio 4 podcast The Moral Maze. They informed me that the latest edition of the programme is available on BBC Sounds and it is entitled Cancel Culture. I will be listening to the programme and hope many of you will listen too.
Haven't any time for this trans b******s I'm afraid. And I do not think those protesters are on a par with climate change and animal rights activists - although they would like to be seen that way, I guess. They are a relatively small section of the community who shout loudly and make a fuss, guilt tripping the rest of us for saying what is true. Trans men are men, not women - end of. As far as I'm aware, no-one is saying they do not exist? They exist as trans men. I am 72 - can I say I am 22 and demand to be treated as such? Is it not 'ageist' to prevent me? Or say I'm an elephant? - isn't that my 'human' right? And as far as I'm aware no one is saying they can't be trans - good luck to them and to anyone else who wants to be - well, however they want to be. Just don't guilt trip me for a pronoun and expect to waltz into women only spaces if you have - ahem, a certain appendage.
Glorianny
Thinking about this even expecting me to know is completely discriminatory.
And you are the one asking people to explain it. Is that so you can then accuse me of discrimination?
Doodledog - if you can’t see the difference, you are blind. What strikes me is that it’s trans women who are shouting the loudest for access to women’s spaces, but I don’t hear of trans men demanding access to male spaces. Could it be that they know how they would be treated by men? Whereas, because transwomen aremen who have transitioned, they basically still think like men, ie, arrogant and assertive.
Glorianny
Doodledog
Can you please explain what is right wing about biological realism? Not with references to Christianity in the US or similar, but in terms of the UK situation. I just don't see how that is the case, unless you are using a very different definition of right wing from my understanding.
Left wing is about creating equality. It isn't about separating people, castigating people or demonising people.
Right wing ideology needs to create us and them. Will then tell you that "they" have more than "us" or "they" are a problem for "us". Over the years the others have been black people, gay people, the poor, women or any other group they could effectively target. Now it's trans people. (and to a certain degree immigrants,, but that is proving harder to instigate because of economics).
Right wing then blames those people for everything. Those people are dealt with, or suitably cowed into silence. Right wing then needs another target. And so it goes on.
Seriously? The left, with its obsession with identity politics, is ALL about separation and division. They put people in boxes according to their characteristics such as ethnicity, skin colour, sexual orienation and gender - this just creates more division. Equality would be saying we are all human beings with equal rights. They constantly castigate people in these boxes for not behaving the way they are supposed to behave - such as black and Asian Conservative politicians, just to give one example. I would say the left are just as much about "us and them" as the right, if not more so.
Santana - I see myself as left but I’m not left enough for some. I agree with you about the risks what could be called extreme left - right are unnervingly similar
Hithere
Hate speech is subjective
I can only dream to fast forward 20 years so society can adapt to changes and adopt the new definition of human rights
It can't be intentionally offensive if it's subjective surely - how is the person speaking to judge what they can say if only the person hearing can tell them & there is no way for them to know?
NanaDana
You don't get to choose your biological sex. That is determined for you by your chromosome make-up at the moment of conception. What you do get to choose is whether or not you live your life in either a male or a female gender style. If you're a biological male and want to adopt the persona of a woman, that doesn't make you a biological female, and it certainly doesn't give you the right to "access all areas" which are reserved for biological females. All you have done is to exercise your freedom, at least in this country, to make a lifestyle choice. Essentially, this is all that Kathleen Stock is saying.
Nicely put - nobody here is denying the right of trans people to live their lives in their chosen gender. Many of us are however denying the rights of men to have access to intimate female spaces, and to take part in female sport. I am happy for trans people to live their lives and, as they do, to have equal rights in law. That is what always confuses me when the activists are demanding "trans rights". They already have the same rights as the rest of us , so what other rights are they talking about exactly? Almost every protest I have seen that involves trans activists is intimidating and aggressive, frequently with participants masked and hooded. Women have been pushed around, spat on and even punched on occasion by these people. Ordinary trans people just want to get on with their lives without all this fuss - these activists are actually making life more difficult for them.
Right wing ideology needs to create us and them.
By identifying people as left wing and right wing that is precisely what you are doing, Glorianny, putting people into boxes.
A survey of 27 groups numbering 8000 people showed that 1%™regretted transitioning
Yes 1% was too many but that 1% was misdiagnosed
99% of that 8000 were happy that they were accepted for treatment
VioletSky
A survey of 27 groups numbering 8000 people showed that 1%™regretted transitioning
Yes 1% was too many but that 1% was misdiagnosed
99% of that 8000 were happy that they were accepted for treatment
Link please? That does not sound at all feasible - what people did they ask? Was the study naturally skewed towards people who were happy with their transition? Who carried it out?
A statistic that should give everyone pause: 40-45% of trans women who are in prison are in there for sexual offences. Way higher than the normal male prison population, and biological women rarely commit sexual crimes. THIS is just one reason why gender self ID should never be allowed! It is wide open to abuse. The law should stay as it is with regards to obtaining a gender recognition certificate.
Okay got stuff to do, if anyone replies to me then I will either be back later or tomorrow, have a great evening ladies x
Link please? That does not sound at all feasible - what people did they ask? Was the study naturally skewed towards people who were happy with their transition? Who carried it out?
Thank you for asking that question Saetana.
There have been no long term studies on the cohort that seems to be experiencing detransition, i.e the recent sudden increase in female to male transition, it is one of the criticisms levelled at the tavistock, that there was no follow up. In addition there is also the concern that the suicide rate after transition does not improve.
MelAnt2
Doodledog - if you can’t see the difference, you are blind. What strikes me is that it’s trans women who are shouting the loudest for access to women’s spaces, but I don’t hear of trans men demanding access to male spaces. Could it be that they know how they would be treated by men? Whereas, because transwomen aremen who have transitioned, they basically still think like men, ie, arrogant and assertive.
Sorry if I am being dim, but if I can't tell the difference between what and what?
Thanks for the link. Are you now claiming to be American as well?
What gender is a person with XXy chromosomes? X0? XXX? Xyy? These are all known genetic variations in humans. They are not as rare as one might think. There are also known differences in brain structures between males and females. What happens when a biological male or female has brain structures generally found in the opposite sex? It is more complex than makes most of us comfortable, I think.
Saetana
A statistic that should give everyone pause: 40-45% of trans women who are in prison are in there for sexual offences. Way higher than the normal male prison population, and biological women rarely commit sexual crimes. THIS is just one reason why gender self ID should never be allowed! It is wide open to abuse. The law should stay as it is with regards to obtaining a gender recognition certificate.
This is a figure that has been widely disputed. It uses inaccuracies and draws doubtful conclusions
aninjusticemag.com/are-50-of-trans-women-in-prison-sex-offenders-512f949c365a
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