Traditional Conservative values: are they reflected in the current government?

Casdon

M0nica

Glorianny after listening to this mornings R4 programme about 600 suicides as the result of a policy to get the disabled into work, which BOTH PARTIES operated.

I cannot say that I have much respect for Labour 'values' either.

It wasn’t initially designed to operate as it is doing now Monica, so your judgement is somewhat harsh.

No but if you introduce a policy that is so open to abuse you have to take some responsibility when that happens.

Labour did nothing to change it.

Glorianny

Casdon

M0nica

Glorianny after listening to this mornings R4 programme about 600 suicides as the result of a policy to get the disabled into work, which BOTH PARTIES operated.

I cannot say that I have much respect for Labour 'values' either.

It wasn’t initially designed to operate as it is doing now Monica, so your judgement is somewhat harsh.

No but if you introduce a policy that is so open to abuse you have to take some responsibility when that happens.

The system was being abused, which was why the policy was introduced. It had flaws of course as so many new schemes do, but that doesn’t mean that the initial principles were wrong, rather that lessons weren’t learnt from the early implementation process - and it’s morphed to a much less humane scheme in the last 13 years than it was ever intended to be.

GrannyRose15

Casdon. The problem is that if we dismiss the fundamentals of democracy as I have outlined them by saying it is a “narrow view of democracy” then we haven’t a hope of maintaining the benefits of democracy such as freedom of speech, the common law, personal property rights etc.

Too often we now allow minority views to take precedence and this upsets the balance of society.

What I was saying though was that what you outlined isn’t all that democracy is - you defined process within one system of democracy. It doesn’t follow that freedom of speech etc. would be lost under a different model.

Your last paragraph concerns me, as it sounds like you are proposing that once an election has taken place it should move to an autocracy - surely not?

Can you outline an alternative form of democracy?

I’m not an expert by any means, but there are different democratic models in existence now and historically, this is a good introduction I think.
www.coe.int/en/web/compass/democracy
Which groups can vote, how representatives and leaders are elected, electoral systems, etc. all vary.

I’m not advocating that minorities should be ignored or marginalised It is the duty of a democratically elected government to protect the interests of minorities. However I still think that most decisions should be made by a majority.

Casdon However you look at it, Labour were involved in the schem and did nothing. Trying to squirm out of responsibility does neither you, nor the Labour party any credit.

Surely one reason for getting disabled people back into work is that many of them wanted to work but found it extremely difficult - whether it was work places, employers, transport etc etc.

I've referred to the film "I Daniel Blake" in the past which I think is a realistic representation of the way in which Job Centres operate with regard to disabled people. If a person tries to claim benefits and the health specialists say that they should not working then Job Centre staff should be taking note of that and not insisting that the individual must work.

Typical Tory value = I'm alright and the rest can stay poor. Johnson got rid of some of the most intelligent members of the Tory party in the Commons and some of them had a moral stance.

Dinahmo what a sweet little idealist you are, if you think that is how the system work.

Disabled people were seen by doctors, and later just nurses, who were incentivised (bonuses) to clear people as being fit for employment, which meant many got passed who were incapable of work. i fthey failed to turn up for interviews or jump through the hoops presented, because they were too ill to do so, their benefits would be cut. Up to SIX HUNDRED people committed suicide while on this scheme.

The problem is not what Job Centre staff take not of with those judged as unable to work, but what they do with people who are incapable of work that the health specialists they see are intimidated to to saying that they are fit for work.

I have worked as a Benefit Advisor with several charities and seen the system in action. A close friend was a senior judge with the Social Services Appeal Trinbunals and some of the stories she told me made me feel physically sick.

M0nica

Casdon However you look at it, Labour were involved in the schem and did nothing. Trying to squirm out of responsibility does neither you, nor the Labour party any credit.

Who’s trying to squirm out of responsibility Monica, I’m certainly not. All I’m saying is that your blanket condemnation is unwarranted because the fault is not in the scheme but in the implementation. Is there another way of assessing claims to make sure they are are genuine, or do you think once people have been granted disability payments they should remain on them for life?

New para 3, I was so frustrated by some peoples lack of under standing I got it all garbled.

Para 3: The problem is not what Job Centre staff do with those certified as being unfit for work. It is what they do with those certified as fit to work when it is quite clear that they are not fit to work. These disabled people have been certified as fit for work because those health specialists who should have signed them off as unfit for work, are intimidated and bullied into passing as fit for work many who are not.

GrannyRose15

We do not have a Conservative government.

I wonder. How many people can describe the policies of the Conservatives, past or present? Love them or leave them most people can give a general description of the policies of the Labour Party over the years. Rather than getting policies through, Conservatives will do what is needed to have power.

So, if you think they would do whatever necessary, including at the detriment of our country, then we do have a Conservative government.

M0nica

New para 3, I was so frustrated by some peoples lack of under standing I got it all garbled.

Para 3: The problem is not what Job Centre staff do with those certified as being unfit for work. It is what they do with those certified as fit to work when it is quite clear that they are not fit to work. These disabled people have been certified as fit for work because those health specialists who should have signed them off as unfit for work, are intimidated and bullied into passing as fit for work many who are not.

It’s just terrible isn’t it?
We need a fair system for disabled people, not putting obstacles in the way of form filling and decisions made about them.
It must be a constant yearly battle for them.

Casdon Implementation and its supervision is the responsibility of the party in power. Labour MPS must have had consituents coming to them with horrific stories and I am sure they passed these on to the relevant ministers etc - yet nothing was done.

M0nica

Casdon Implementation and its supervision is the responsibility of the party in power. Labour MPS must have had consituents coming to them with horrific stories and I am sure they passed these on to the relevant ministers etc - yet nothing was done.

Yes Monica, there were problems from the introduction in 2008, and a number of reviews were carried out which improved some of the implementation issues, but it was extremely complex. By 2013, 3 years after Labour had left office, further reviews recommended further changes, since then, 10 years later, nothing has changed for the better. This gives some insight,
www.disabilitynewsservice.com/fitness-for-work-test-government-should-start-again-from-scratch/

M0nica

Dinahmo what a sweet little idealist you are, if you think that is how the system work.

Disabled people were seen by doctors, and later just nurses, who were incentivised (bonuses) to clear people as being fit for employment, which meant many got passed who were incapable of work. i fthey failed to turn up for interviews or jump through the hoops presented, because they were too ill to do so, their benefits would be cut. Up to SIX HUNDRED people committed suicide while on this scheme.

The problem is not what Job Centre staff take not of with those judged as unable to work, but what they do with people who are incapable of work that the health specialists they see are intimidated to to saying that they are fit for work.

I have worked as a Benefit Advisor with several charities and seen the system in action. A close friend was a senior judge with the Social Services Appeal Trinbunals and some of the stories she told me made me feel physically sick.

I think that you misunderstood me. The whole point of the film is that Daniel Blake, a carpenter who had heart problems was judge by his specialist and his GP to be unfit for work but the Job Centre staff decided that he was fit and withdrew his benefits. He died.

Some friends are going through this at the moment with their daughter. A few years ago they managed to obtain a Court order to ensure that their daughter continued to receive benefits. The order was for a given period of time. The DSS have recently ignored the order and have stopped her benefits. So the process is starting again.

We should be a more generous and less suspicious society.

It is not society, it is the implementation of government policy by the government, that turns what is seemingy a helpful and generous offer into an underhand way of driving down benefits payments to the most vulnerable in society.

DaisyAnneReturns

GrannyRose15

We do not have a Conservative government.

I wonder. How many people can describe the policies of the Conservatives, past or present? Love them or leave them most people can give a general description of the policies of the Labour Party over the years. Rather than getting policies through, Conservatives will do what is needed to have power.

So, if you think they would do whatever necessary, including at the detriment of our country, then we do have a Conservative government.

But I don't believe that. I think true conservatives have very clear ideas of what it means to be conservative. Basically it is about change through evolution not revolution, freedom of the individual, low taxes, small state, the rule of law and above all democracy.
Many of these principles are totally disregarded by many present Tory MPs. Hence my statement that we do not have a Conservative government at present. We do not even have one that believes in democracy.

Casdon

I’m not an expert by any means, but there are different democratic models in existence now and historically, this is a good introduction I think.
www.coe.int/en/web/compass/democracy
Which groups can vote, how representatives and leaders are elected, electoral systems, etc. all vary.

Yes they do vary. But all of them have as their foundations the principles I outlined. The most important one of course is that once a vote has been taken all those involved in the process accept the decision regardless of how they themselves voted. This should be true if it is the village hall committee voting, the membership of a political party, or all adults citizens as in a general election.

No, we don't have that at the moment, but what we do have is still called the Conservative government, so I think my description of Conservatives is what we have. Conservatives voted for them. Conservatives seem to want them. Therefore what we have are Conservatives in their eyes.

This is a war between your type of Conservative and those who have been setting up their futures while disregarding the needs of others. I notice that the needs of others don't get a mention in your list either. Perhaps all these Conservatives have more in common than you think.

My post was to GrannyRose's post of 20.45

Grantanow

Typical Tory value = I'm alright and the rest can stay poor. Johnson got rid of some of the most intelligent members of the Tory party in the Commons and some of them had a moral stance.

Who are you talking about?

DaisyAnneReturns

No, we don't have that at the moment, but what we do have is still called the Conservative government, so I think my description of Conservatives is what we have. Conservatives voted for them. Conservatives seem to want them. Therefore what we have are Conservatives in their eyes.

This is a war between your type of Conservative and those who have been setting up their futures while disregarding the needs of others. I notice that the needs of others don't get a mention in your list either. Perhaps all these Conservatives have more in common than you think.

But Conservatives don't want them. The members of the Conservative party have been sidelined along with many other Conservative values.