Traditional Conservative values: are they reflected in the current government?

No what values. I don't know what Conservative values are. Torries have always favoured the rich, elite. They are spivs and have to be good salesmen. Nye Bevan more said about the Torries and with just cause. That was in mid 40s, unchanged

This is exactly the sort of post that makes it difficult to have a sensible discussion. You don't want to hear what I have to say and if this is the best you can do I don't what to hear what you have to say either.

But Conservatives don't want them. The members of the Conservative party have been sidelined along with many other Conservative values.

But, GrannyRose, didn't members of the Conservative Party vote for Johnson as leader? Why did they do that?

And are you saying that they've been sidelined because they weren't allowed to vote for Sunak after the disaster with Liz Truss?

A quick look at current government ministers and their schools and it seems that there’s a good mix of educational backgrounds for once - looking at schools that is. Bit more balanced in outlook.
Also the question as to why CP members voted for BJ MaizieD - I can remember surprise on hearing that Adolf Hitler came to power by legitimate means.

GrannyRose15

Can you outline an alternative form of democracy?

Switzerland.

Ny Bevan was a pretty good salesman, although a bit of a bully, so if he thought that is what the Conservatives were, he spoke from personal knowledge.

Grannyrose, it is not that people are not listening to you, it is just that too many have totally closed minds, that make them unable to see anything good in any other party but their own and fsil to see where there party is wrong or at best misguided.

This is where oppressive regimes start with zealot supporters, who cannot cope with anyone querying them and intimidating anyone that does. This is what lies behind all fascist states from the 1930s onward.

fancythat that’s the name of a country not a description of how their democracy works. Don’t they make decisions on the basis of voting? Don’t they decide who can vote in their elections? Don’t they agree to abide by the results of this elections ?

It’s not so much that they couldn’t vote Sunak in. It is the fact that they had already rejected him as leader.

The mps had voted for Sunak and not Truss. The 180000 or so paid up CP members voted for Truss.
I’d go with the people on the coalface. The whole system needs a reset.

GrannyRose15

It’s not so much that they couldn’t vote Sunak in. It is the fact that they had already rejected him as leader.

I did word that badly, I'm afraid. I was really asking whether it was because they weren't consulted in that leadership election.

You didn't address my point about the membership voting for Johnson. Did they believe that he had traditional conservative values?

I'm trying to understand why you think the party membership has been sidelined.

•MaisieD• The membership voted for Boris Johnson. That choice was vindicated by an 80 seat majority in a general election. The MPs got rid of him and the membership were not given any say on whether or not he should stay. When given a choice between Liz Truss and Rishi Sunak the membership voted for Liz Truss. But the MPs didn’t like that so they installed the one man that had been rejected by the membership.

Added to that local associations now have very little say in who their Conservative candidate will be for a general election. Instead the candidates are imposed on local associations by central office.

Wouldn’t you think you were being sidelined if that happened in any organisation you were a member of?

People voted for Boris to deliver Brexit and bring a halt to all the stupid delays bought about by the bad losers. He did that. I also remember the speech he made when Covid was announced, no one found have done that better. True he made mistakes, but one thing he does have, is the love of this country I can't remember him throwing anyone to the wolves. Sunak has shown his true colours, nothing srand a in his way but he's inconsequential..You can't have one sorts in power too long it's just a pity it's sit on the fence, play safe until it's time to come out Kier.

Allsorts

People voted for Boris to deliver Brexit and bring a halt to all the stupid delays bought about by the bad losers. He did that. I also remember the speech he made when Covid was announced, no one found have done that better. True he made mistakes, but one thing he does have, is the love of this country I can't remember him throwing anyone to the wolves. Sunak has shown his true colours, nothing srand a in his way but he's inconsequential..You can't have one sorts in power too long it's just a pity it's sit on the fence, play safe until it's time to come out Kier.

If he never threw anyone to the wolves how come so many decent Conservative MP’s left the party, either of their own volition or were pushed? Christopher Soames, Dominic Grieve, Rory Stewart etc Ok Kenneth Clarke was due to retire anyway but he wouldn’t have served under him. Johnson is totally ruthless. His fans seem to ignore his faults in the way that Trump fans ignore his. In what way has he shown that he loves this country?

“Wouldn’t you think you were being sidelined if that happened in any organisation you were a member of?”

No not sidelined, when Truss went rouge, it was not practical to hold another election which would have dragged the financial chaos out for months. Sunak was happy to take on the job and has proved to be capable of doing it at least as well as previous recent PMs.
Members provide a lot of fund raising and donations for the party, as well as campaigning personnel for elections, so aren’t likely to be sidelined.

MaisieD• The membership voted for Boris Johnson. That choice was vindicated by an 80 seat majority in a general election.

The thread topic is 'traditional Conservative values', GrannyRose, and you have indicated that you think the current government doesn't have them. .

So are you telling me that party members thought that Johnson did exemplify traditional Conservative values when they elected him?

Reached the point where am asking if any one political party has any traditional values? Are traditional values better than non traditional values? Why be stuck with tradition if it’s stopping progress etc ? Is it not more progressive to have ‘values’ ? Stream of consciousness I know ….

Katie59

“Wouldn’t you think you were being sidelined if that happened in any organisation you were a member of?”

No not sidelined, when Truss went rouge, it was not practical to hold another election which would have dragged the financial chaos out for months. Sunak was happy to take on the job and has proved to be capable of doing it at least as well as previous recent PMs.
Members provide a lot of fund raising and donations for the party, as well as campaigning personnel for elections, so aren’t likely to be sidelined.

Exactly that. They want our money but not our opinion.

It’s always a compromise in politics. You go for the least worst fit. I think that’s what we did when we elected Boris as far as values was concerned. Although at the time of course there was a much more pelressing issue- Brexit.

“Pressing” answer to Maisie D

I didn't know that Boris Johnson had any values, other than himself.

M0nica

I didn't know that Boris Johnson had any values, other than himself.

I did laugh at Johnson’s comments yesterday blaming everyone else except himself, exactly as Trump does, my cynicism about politician's took a turn for the worse.

Allsorts True he made mistakes, but one thing he does have, is the love of this country"

The only thing Boris loves is himself.

ronib

A quick look at current government ministers and their schools and it seems that there’s a good mix of educational backgrounds for once - looking at schools that is. Bit more balanced in outlook.
Also the question as to why CP members voted for BJ MaizieD - I can remember surprise on hearing that Adolf Hitler came to power by legitimate means.

He used the legitimate system. I am not sure we can call the means legitimate.

All political careers end in failure and the Buffon's end is more salutary than most. His complicity in abusing and intimidating the Committee of Privileges is disgraceful. The worst PM in modern history. His shadow falls across the Tory Party. Tory MPs must vote in favour of the report. Not to do so will bring the Tory Party into disrepute. Sunak should lead by example. And threats to the Committee members should be the subject of police investigation.

Yes