Traditional Conservative values: are they reflected in the current government?

Casdon. The problem is that if we dismiss the fundamentals of democracy as I have outlined them by saying it is a “narrow view of democracy” then we haven’t a hope of maintaining the benefits of democracy such as freedom of speech, the common law, personal property rights etc.

Too often we now allow minority views to take precedence and this upsets the balance of society.

M0nica

Glorianny after listening to this mornings R4 programme about 600 suicides as the result of a policy to get the disabled into work, which BOTH PARTIES operated.

I cannot say that I have much respect for Labour 'values' either.

It wasn’t initially designed to operate as it is doing now Monica, so your judgement is somewhat harsh.

Glorianny after listening to this mornings R4 programme about 600 suicides as the result of a policy to get the disabled into work, which BOTH PARTIES operated.

I cannot say that I have much respect for Labour 'values' either.

We do not have a Conservative government.

Boris Johnson has just resigned as an mp!

Any way it’s spun, this government has trashed the Nhs - 7.4 million people waiting for treatment?
Is this why we have increased immigration to replace the population?
Although was the conservative government ever going to run the Nhs with any good outcomes since their main objective seems be to grow the private medical sector?

GrannyRose15

Casdon. Here goes with my attempt to explain what I mean.

In order for democracy to be achieved there are certain preconditions.

1. It must be decided who is allowed to vote in an election.

2. The issue to be decided on must be chosen.

3. A ballot is held where each elector is allowed to vote freely as they see fit.

4. The person/ idea with the most votes wins.

5. Everyone involved agrees to abide by the decision of the majority.

In 2016 we had an election where those who lost did not abide by the result. In 2022 a minority decided to get rid of a Prime Minster without putting it to a general election. There was then an election for a replacement but the result was once again overturned. Whatever you think of the personalities involved this is certainly not democracy in my book. Add to this the sidelining of parliament (elected by the people) by an appointed executive during the covid debacle and a clear picture is emerging. The government, many in parliament and a large section of the population do not believe in democracy. We should all be very worried.

That’s quite a narrow description of democracy, but I’d agree is part of it. Are you in Scotland, NI or Wales, as otherwise there wasn’t an election in 2016?
The processes for leadership dethroning and successor election is down to each individual political party’s constitution as I understand it, but I’m happy to be corrected if I’m wrong about that.

It just struck me that the answer to the OP is probably "No. But you can find them in the Labour Party" (but the right wing of the LP don't like to talk about that!)

Traditionsl Conservative values???

Fiddelity in marriage?

Honest dealing?

Respect for the Law of the land???

Careful managing of money?

Integrity?

Honesty?

Transparency?

Care for the environment?

Setting an example of probity on the world stage?

Fairness?

Justice?

Defending democracy?

Encouraging enterprise?

Rooting out corruption?

If these still are, or ever were "traditional Conservative values", who on earth could ever claim that this appalling Conservative Party upholds even one of these?

If conservatives don’t stop immigration they won’t get in, that’s for definite worrying, when Starmer never says anything about so many things just knocks the other other side, if the fence he sits on was any higher we wouldn’t see him. Financially every country in the same boat , if not worse, that’s why everyone wants to get here, give me another reason if you can please.

Whitewavemark2

Katie59

Capitalism or socialism has nothing to do with the way most vote it’s how it benefits them personally and most believe what they read or see in the media.

Not sure how that fits into my argument. It has got nothing to do with voting patterns

We havn’t had a socialist PM elected since Harold Wilson, so any thought of one soon is misplaced It’s clear to me that Starmer is, if elected going to be similar to Blair, it may well be different in practice but that is the image he is projecting.

Too many are overthinking voters intentions, it’s the way that the party leader presents the policies that convinces voters

Casdon. Here goes with my attempt to explain what I mean.

In order for democracy to be achieved there are certain preconditions.

1. It must be decided who is allowed to vote in an election.

2. The issue to be decided on must be chosen.

3. A ballot is held where each elector is allowed to vote freely as they see fit.

4. The person/ idea with the most votes wins.

5. Everyone involved agrees to abide by the decision of the majority.

In 2016 we had an election where those who lost did not abide by the result. In 2022 a minority decided to get rid of a Prime Minster without putting it to a general election. There was then an election for a replacement but the result was once again overturned. Whatever you think of the personalities involved this is certainly not democracy in my book. Add to this the sidelining of parliament (elected by the people) by an appointed executive during the covid debacle and a clear picture is emerging. The government, many in parliament and a large section of the population do not believe in democracy. We should all be very worried.

What is/was the 'true Conservative party?

if I think 'Compassionate Conservativism' I think of the 25 years after World War 2.

I think about 'Reactionary right wing Conservatism' That is now.

Anyone hear the programme on R4 this morning about the 'Fit to work' programme

For 30 years, governments( of all colours) have tried to get disabled people into work by toughening up benefit rules.

As the government announces it plans to scrap its Fit for Work test, this programme looked at the way the programme, which has been held responsible for up to 600 suicides , has been run.

After listening to this programme, it seemed to me that compassion is in short supply, whatever party is in charge. is in charge.

GrannyRose15

We all talk about democracy here as though it is a given. I wonder how many people know that we haven’t lived a democracy since at least 2016 probably longer. This relight wing left wing stuff is a mere distraction.

Can you explain what you mean exactly GrannyRose15?

What we should all be passionate about is the return of democracy to this country. Of course we’d first need a definition. A vote for every free male citizen probably would work today.

I think that the rot started with Thatcher privatising the utilities and the right to buy council houses. She wanted Britain to become a share owning democracy, which to a certain extent she achieved. In 1979 7% of the population owned shares and at the end of the 80s ownership had increased to 25%.

Major and then the Blair/Brown governments continued with the sell off of assets, followed by Cameron and Osborne. This latter govt started the partial sale of NHS assets and forced local authorities and housing associations to sell off land that they owned. Much of this was at knock down prices. The utilities were under priced with many small purchasers selling their newly acquired shareholdings very quickly at a good profit.

The reason given was to reduce the national debt and the result is that the country owns fewer assets than those owned prior to Thatcher.

We all talk about democracy here as though it is a given. I wonder how many people know that we haven’t lived a democracy since at least 2016 probably longer. This relight wing left wing stuff is a mere distraction.

What I am saying that the present government gives primacy to the market every time over democracy.

Katie59

Capitalism or socialism has nothing to do with the way most vote it’s how it benefits them personally and most believe what they read or see in the media.

Not sure how that fits into my argument. It has got nothing to do with voting patterns

GrannyRose15

Can someone please explain to me why populism is bad but we still want politicians to be in touch with the views of the people. Don’t the two go together?

Some definitions of populism:

a political approach that strives to appeal to ordinary people who feel that their concerns are disregarded by established elite groups.

What is the root cause of populism?
“Cultural insecurity as the main root cause of populism”

Populism refers to a range of political stances that emphasize the idea of "the people" and often juxtapose this group against "the elite". It is frequently associated with anti-establishment and anti-political sentiment.

political ideas and activities that are intended to get the support of ordinary people by giving them what they want: Their ideas are simple populism - tax cuts and higher wages. - Cambridge Dictionary

There's plenty if you google but they're all much of a muchness

Capitalism or socialism has nothing to do with the way most vote it’s how it benefits them personally and most believe what they read or see in the media.

GrannyRose15

Only if you have an electorate that doesn’t agree with capitalism.

No it isn’t quite as simple as that, imo. It has nothing to do with capitalism v socialism as you were possibly implying, but I think that there is no doubt that the laissez faire economy excludes democracy because it is a market operating on entirely different principles to democracy.

So a small state and government, does nothing to intervene to protect the worker from exploitation as we are witnessing in the drive to repeal various employment rights.
The two are mutually exclusive.

Which is why I believe in strong government that whilst supporting the market, ensures that those contributing their labour are not exploited.

GrannyRose15

Can someone please explain to me why populism is bad but we still want politicians to be in touch with the views of the people. Don’t the two go together?

There’s a good BBC article which explains it well, I remembered this from when it was originally produced.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-43301423
The last couple of paragraphs explain the disconnect between populism and the aspirations of the people.

“And when one recalls that it was tory party members who voted for Liz Truss to become PM one does wonder about their judgement...”

Truss was just the puppet the mouthpiece of the far right, they didn’t count on her being totally incompetent. Sunak is the best they have got, they didnt have the members to vote him down, he is probably the best bet at the coming election, so the far right will keep quiet and back the policies.

This is discussed quite a lot on The Rest is Politics because Rory Stewart often explains why he is a Conservative. And also explains why he can no longer be a member of that party. I’ll try to find a podcast in which he discusses this but am not sure if I can post it.