Has the penny dropped (as fast as the Pound)- Brexit is a disaster

Exactly it is so complicated as well Dickens because you would also need to bring in the number of hours worked, which is so variable from country to country!

Callistemon21

None of this would have happened if the UK was still in the EU, Foxygloves

Any fule kno that

🤣🤣🤣

I think it’s obvious that the OP doesn’t know/ understand how many of us know what’s going on in other countries.
If she did she would know that we could/would bring up the problems/ horrors that other countries are having, including her own.

Joseann

I think it is risky to compare aspects between other countries because the systems from one to another vary so much. We tried this sort of conversation last week with French friends over the raising of their retirement age. However, each country has so many different schemes that the idea of simply bringing the age in France into line with that in the UK, (as Macron likes to build into his argument), is almost impossible.

I think this is maybe is why a certain number voted Leave, because they knew a Federal Europe would never happen, and because it appeared that the UK was being unfairly treated.

I think it is risky to compare aspects between other countries because the systems from one to another vary so much. We tried this sort of conversation last week with French friends over the raising of their retirement age. However, each country has so many different schemes that the idea of simply bringing the age in France into line with that in the UK, (as Macron likes to build into his argument), is almost impossible.

Absolutely on point.

Looking at other countries as a kind of 'blue-print' just doesn't work.

The UN Dept of Economic & Social Affairs, looks at 'world population ageing'. I remember when Norway wanted to reform its pensions policy, it used the UN forecast as a guide and based its reform on that prediction - one that was peculiar to Norway. Which makes sense - rather than comparing our retirement pensions with other European nations.

People say our pensions are poor by comparison with other EU countries - one of the lowest. But I don't think we can compare the vastly differing systems with each other.

Macron should be looking at economic forecasts in order to maintain a sustainable pension system - that also takes into consideration high life expectancy - in France!

TerryBull
Anyway, do let us know how you get on 😂

None of this would have happened if the UK was still in the EU, Foxygloves

Any fule kno that

But it's still interesting to try to figure out the differences, if we want to, without slagging off any country.

I think it is risky to compare aspects between other countries because the systems from one to another vary so much. We tried this sort of conversation last week with French friends over the raising of their retirement age. However, each country has so many different schemes that the idea of simply bringing the age in France into line with that in the UK, (as Macron likes to build into his argument), is almost impossible.

I think this is maybe is why a certain number voted Leave, because they knew a Federal Europe would never happen, and because it appeared that the UK was being unfairly treated.

Today I was with a large group of Germans, French, Czechs, Italians, Swiss, Americans and Japanese - all expressed concern about the state of Great Britain

How heartening 💞
So the German economy (officially in recession), French social problems, strikes, violence in the Paris suburbs, Czech problems , did you know 760,000 people in the Czech Republic have had assets seized to repay debts, about 400,000 to 500,000 of them have five of more additional debts which they cannot repay and which therefore incur penalties and interest, creating a debt spiral? Then Italian corruption in politics and other high places, not to mention the damage of the recent floods, Swiss problems such as the failure to integrate foreigners into Swiss society which has been a source of great social problems. Apparently 25% of the active population and 19.33% of the total population are not Swiss citizens. Foreigners are disproportionately represented among the unemployed and in the lowest wage categories That's interesting if not something to be proud of.
Finally then in the US there’s , the prospect of a return of Trump - if he is not in prison that is, and as for Japan which faces a host of issues, including an ageing society and depopulation - well how nice for them to be able to take a break from their own issues and think about pore lil’ ole us Brits.
And that’s not even taking the threat of nuclear war, Russia, Ukraine, the threats from China and N Korea into account. 🤔

Callistemon21

Of course we can talk about it Dickens

I don't think that is the point at all.

... no?

I have the distinct impression from some of the comments that Brexit is a subject that is no longer relevant because it's "done", and that introducing the topic is pointless and that the OP is in need of some help to get-over-it. A 'here-we-go-again-why-do-you-keep-bringing-this-up' - collective sigh.

Oh and maybe you could have a word with your Czech friends on how their attitude towards their Roma population is somewhat at odds with EU diktats but then Eastern Europe seem to go their own way as far as assimilating minority groups, or so it seems.

You are so right. I worked in a school here in England that had a massive influx of pupils from Central Europe. Most of them Roma. We learnt quickly that parents did not give Roma as their ethnic origin because they thought they’d be subject to the same dreadful discrimination they’d had back at home. Many of the children had had no education or medical care whatsoever. Non-Roma parents from the area who came to look round would say quite openly that they’d be looking for another school as they didn’t want their children to mix with Roma, or the other children of minority ethnic origin. We discovered that one pupil had a severely disabled sibling who was being kept hidden at home as the parents feared what the authorities would do to her. What they did was sort out medical care, benefits, one to one support, equipment and an adapted car for the family.

Perhaps this could be a more interesting topic of conversation for your next party, OP?

Of course we can talk about it Dickens

I don't think that is the point at all.

Did anyone think to tell Jacob R-M and his fellow Euro-sceptics that the 1975 referendum result was "done" / "over" / "finished"?

Nearly 20 years later, he / they were still so incensed and angry about our membership that the ERG was formed.

They didn't get over it, they didn't listen to those who said that the event was in the past and that they should move on... that's if anyone did say those things?

They believed our membership was damaging to the UK, to our sovereignty, etc... and they didn't stop talking about it - ever.

So why is talking about Brexit - which is not yet "done", and which the stalwart JRM even acknowledges will not necessarily show its benefits for decades - such a taboo subject?

Brexit was a huge change to our economic and constitutional way of life - as was the result of the 1975 Referendum. Why should we not talk about it? Nothing is set in stone in politics - not in a democracy, it's a flippin' ongoing process.

I think it was a disastrous move. Others do, too. And yet others think it was beneficial, and the right choice. But why the taboo on mentioning it?

Why do those who clearly regard it as "done" and who have no further interest in discussing it, insist that no-on else does either?

After we left the EU, Johnson's government fostered a climate of 'no-discussion' about Brexit, which - considering some of the mammoth changes it brought about - seems to be a very undemocratic culture. A way of closing down debate. And that seems to be what's happening here. A little bit of gaslighting, too - suggest to FP that she's obsessed - it was even recommended that she consult her GP to seek help by one poster. A good tack to go down; suggest that anyone who still wants to debate Brexit doesn't have a life, is consumed with anger...

EU legislation is still being discussed. Some senior government figures want a 'Swiss' style deal and are rumoured to be pursuing that course. Down Street has denied it. The UK will not pursue any post-Brexit relationship with the EU "that relies on alignment with EU laws" Prime Minister Rishi Sunak said.

The ramifications of Brexit continue. Allow those who want to discuss it / them, to do so. If you're bored with the subject then the remedy is obvious - no one's forcing you to be part of the discussion. Perhaps you want to impose the, '"I-don't-want-to-discuss-it-so-I-don't-want-anyone-else-to-discuss-it-either" mindset on the rest of us?

1975 was a majority vote. Those who've worked tirelessly ever since to overturn it - have. I'm sure they enjoyed life in between campaigning and debating. As they did, so will we.

And round we go again. Good post TerriBull.

Typo:

whether we and they are in the EU or not.

So, we have the populist architect of Brexit resigning leaving behind him a country that is significantly economically poorer, its population poorer and the knowledge that the U.K. will be poorer year on year. He forced a hard Brexit on a country that no one voted for with the resultant issues in NI.

The illusive sovereignty never materialised, inequality has grown, and the consequent reduced levels of immigration has resulted in an NHS struggling, our service sector desperately seeking staff.

So all those who criticise those of us who continue to argue for closer ties to Europe at a minimum, should understand that in doing so you are supporting the argument of a disgraced lying, corrupt ex-PM who will/is judged to be the worse PM that the U.K. has ever had the misfortune to suffer.

Brexit was built and won on lies.

Perhaps many of those who voted to leave believed:

National independence is part of our history and identity

They like to consider themselves a freedom-loving, independent people who are willing to stand up to foreign masters (and commission presidents)

The UK?
No, apparently that is why Switzerland doesn’t want to join the European Union

I hope we can work towards amicable agreements with all our neighbours, whether we and they in the EU or not.

What's done is done. Lets move forwards. At least our future is in our own hands now, whether good or bad.

"Today I was with a large group of Germans, French, Czechs, Italians, Swiss, Americans and Japanese - all expressed concern about the state of Great Britain"

Given most all of those countries will have their own domestic problems perhaps they should direct some of those concerns homewards. America for example has a helluva problem with its opiate crisis and the level of homelessness in not only the state of California. This now seems to be spreading further afield, truly appalling tent like pop up shanty towns all over the place, one of its premier cities, San Francisco is practically a no go area! Meanwhile because of lax laws relating to looting in some states, whereby only a slapped wrist if goods under $1,000 are taken applies, many small business going broke and large conglomerates such as Walmart feel it necessary to pull out of parts of Chicago because of financial losses. Oh yes and they are still one of the world's largest polluters, and make sure you apply those observations as robustly to them as you do when you express your numerous concerns as to the state of the nation here.

Moving on, meanwhile Germany officially entered recession in 2023 suffering from its over reliance on Nord Stream, who thought that was a good idea?? could you remind us please

Italy, how I love that country, but its problems are as numerous, as the governments they have had since WW2 . How many would those be? sure you know Fleurpepper and what is their national debt is now? Talking of which, alarmingly Japan's national debt as at March 2023 is stated as 9.2 trillion US Dollars, I'd slip that in with your Japanese friends during a tete-a-tete whilst enjoying your next bottle of sake should the contentious subject of spending comes up!!!

Oh and maybe you could have a word with your Czech friends on how their attitude towards their Roma population is somewhat at odds with EU diktats but then Eastern Europe seem to go their own way as far as assimilating minority groups, or so it seems. Have

Anyway do let us know how you get on

Please don't be rude about Brenda.
Her remark was nothing to do with Brexit.

Thank you.

Joseann
Don’t apologise 😄

Grantanow

You may all be fed up with Brexit talk but it is increasingly obviously a disaster. Politicians need to get their heads round how to remedy that and that involves keeping the issue on the public agenda, not burying it.

Exactly- and the demise of Johnson is a game changer. As for Brenda, she may be in for a shock, as if Johnson's mates resign in large numbers, to bring down Sunak- then yes, the next GE will have to be sooner than planned, because surely the Tories could not, yet again (yes Brenda) appoint new PM.

No, it is not done, in any way, shape or form, and has not even been implemented in full, for fear of even more damage to the economy.

The vote was never ever 'democratic' and we now all have proof that it was based on so many humongous lies, and outside interference, by foreign Press Barons and Russian Oligarchs, probably Putin behind them. That cannot be denied, by anyone, Brexiter or otherwise.

And true Democracy means that the door is opened to change our mind, THAT is true Democracy.

As said, this thread was directly related to Johnson's demise- not stated, as to anyone who is even vaguely politically aware, would have realised this.

A game changer, as said.

Can't remember the exact words, but something like 'don't keep on making a mistake, just because you have been making it for so long'.

Aveline, I would be really interested in the facts behind 'it is not an unmitigated disaster'. Thanks.

And even the French doggie next door has fallen in love with my dog over conversations about the worldwide economy and the price of sausages! 🇬🇧 + 🇫🇷 🐕 = ❤️.

Sorry, but I'm for bringing some lighter balance here. X

Personally I'm just happy to eat and drink away any Brexit sorrows for a few weeks. (This is just today's lot!) Brexit woes don't preoccupy my mind and follow me everywhere, everyday.

Just back from purchases at the charcuterie in town. Chap serving behind the counter was moaning to the customer in front how it was impossible for him to get to see a dentist to pull out a tooth, which had been giving him severe pain for 6 months. Ouch! Unhelpfully I told him, it was the same everywhere! Not Brexit.