It has taken a little over 10 years and Tory cuts to push the NHS from the top to second from the bottom of risk nation health care.

The Kings Fund report is a thorough piece of research and attempts to rubbish it using anecdotal stories don't cut the mustard. It's obvious the Tories want to rubbish it because it exposes the very serious damage their underfunding of the NHS has done. Sunak's interview on Sunday was bizarre - he gave the same answer to four different questions: obviously a poor defensive ploy. Many EU countries were able to respond better than the UK to Covid because they had built surplus capacity into their health services as a matter of policy. Comments about NHS managers being incompetent and unnecessary are usually anecdotal. Private sector management in my experience is far simpler than public sector management: public sector managers often have to meet a wide range of complex (and sometimes conflicting) targets set by public expectation and political ideology whereas private sector managers can focus usually on simpler targets like profit, individual client satisfaction, recruitment and retention. And there are management disasters in the private sector, for example in mining (where companies failed to deal with foreseeable environmental problems), ignoring harassment issues leading to public opprobrium, dubious balance sheets that should have been corrected by adequate audit and computer-related errors which led to the dubious prosecutions for fraud of many subpostmasters by a long-privatised mail handler. Most of the adverse comments are based on a political belief 'private sector good, public sector bad' which fails the test of the real world rather than a Tory parallel universe.

Thank you Mamie.

I think both Germany and France spend more on health. DH is spending a lot of time in hospitals and clinics here in France at the moment and the thing you notice is the sheer number of staff. Doctors, nurses, ancillary staff, secretaries, porters, cleaning staff etc. There are also the huge numbers of medical taxi drivers, and ambulances that you see frequently on the roads. The health service provides a great deal of employment.

silverlining48

My dd lives in Germany and yes, they have a better more efficient health system than we do, and by some way.

Do you know the relative costs silverlining?

I know that is a big ask but, for instance, you can by better made clothes from Jager than you can from a supermarket but the cost is higher. It would be really interesting to know if the Germans have managed this on a proportionately decreasing budget and negligible capital spending.

Maremia

It isn't because of Covid. All of Europe suffered from Covid, but only the Brits suffered from BREXIT at the same time. Underfunding? Remember the promise to the NHS on that big red Boris Bus? Why would the Tories deliberately underfund the NHS? Here's a wee clue, in the form of a question. How many Leaders of the Opposition have had as many meetings as Sunak with US private care providers.

Yes

It isn't because of Covid. All of Europe suffered from Covid, but only the Brits suffered from BREXIT at the same time. Underfunding? Remember the promise to the NHS on that big red Boris Bus? Why would the Tories deliberately underfund the NHS? Here's a wee clue, in the form of a question. How many Leaders of the Opposition have had as many meetings as Sunak with US private care providers.

My dd lives in Germany and yes, they have a better more efficient health system than we do, and by some way.

Germany amongst others of our close neighbours invest far more money into their health services and - guess what- have more doctors, beds, ICU capacity etc etc we invest far less and our failings are blamed on - the management? Yes they have a free at the point of delivery system which is funded by the state and topped up with a public national insurance scheme.

The problem with the Tory supporters on this thread who are desperate to rubbish the Kings Fund report is that everything that they are saying is anecdotal.

No one has produced actual evidence to show that it isn’t lack of funding leading to staff shortages, investment in infrastructure etc, but in fact entirely down to bad management.

Their arguments do not stand up, because they are not based on anything but here- say.

I’m amazed so many students want to go to medical school.

Junior doctors striking because their pay is only £14 per hour or similar. And subsequently leaving the profession in droves.

Does that not put these prospective doctors off? Why do they think it will be any different when they qualify?

My local nhs hospital trust have introduced a new system.
After many months I finally went on the waiting list for a hip replacement at the end of February. Mid April I was called for a pre op assessment. Brilliant! I thought, op must be imminent. But hold your horses…. Before the assessment I had to fill in an online assessment (another private initiative?) which comes with the warning it could take up to an hour. Ok, I have the nous, persistence and equipment to fill in said form. Has everybody? At the assessment the nurse had my completed form on screen and proceeded to go through it with me to check my answers! This assessment lasts for 3months. The accompanying blood, cardiac, Covid, MRSA tests last just weeks! Waiting list still has me down for September/October op, so all will need repeating at least once!
Where is the efficiency in that? So many people’s time wasted, including mine, at quite a cost I would imagine.
My last hip replacement in 2007 had the pre op assessment about 10 days before.

I also don't understand why people are spending so much time discussing management when one of the major factors cited is the shortage of doctors and nurses.
Does anyone else have a grandchild applying for medical school at the moment? A clutch of 9s at GCSE and predicted A*s at A level is no guarantee.
The shortage of places and especially subsequent placements is appalling.

The German federal system seems to work well. The are far more hospital beds, doctors arc per head of population and health spending per capita is much higher. During Covid they were able to offer surplus ICU beds to other EU countries.

Just as a reminder; this is from Full Fact.

"How satisfied are people with the NHS?
The British Social Attitudes Survey has asked the public since 1983 about their satisfaction with the NHS. From 2001-2010 the proportion of people in great Britain surveyed reporting satisfaction with the NHS generally increased to a peak of 70%.
That figure was from the 2010 survey, which took place between June and September, after the Coalition government had taken office. By 2017 satisfaction had fallen to 57%. "
fullfact.org/health/satisfaction-nhs-peaked-2010/

That was what I heard too Grantanow.

Was the interview with Sunak the one where he appeared to give the same answer to four different questions? It was embarrassing.

Germanshepherdsmum

And covid - don’t forget that.

It's clear from the interview I saw with the main author of the report that the NHS problems are caused by lack of doctors, nurses and equipment brought about by underfunding over the past decade+ and that other comparable countries were able to respond to Covid because they had surplus capacity in their health systems whereas ours is pared to the bone. Sunak sounded pretty defensive about it and it's going to take more than a decade to remedy.

mazzie66

Thank you, Daisy Ann for dismissing my 22 years of ‘lived experience’ working in the NHS. Just to make it plan, when I moved on I wasn’t disgruntled. Disappointed yes, disgruntled no.

What specifically were you disappointed about?

mazzie66

Thank you, Daisy Ann for dismissing my 22 years of ‘lived experience’ working in the NHS. Just to make it plan, when I moved on I wasn’t disgruntled. Disappointed yes, disgruntled no.

I didn't dismiss it. Read my post again and draw breath before you launch into accusations.

Thank you, Daisy Ann for dismissing my 22 years of ‘lived experience’ working in the NHS. Just to make it plan, when I moved on I wasn’t disgruntled. Disappointed yes, disgruntled no.

What I find most astonishing about this is that apparently 10 years ago we were top and so proud of our NHS
Really?

That study was by the US Washington based Commonwealth Foundation.
The new study is by the UK Kings Fund

Were the same criteria applied and the same comparisons made this time as last?

The 2014 study did make one proviso which was:
The only serious black mark against the NHS was its poor record on keeping people alive

That would seem to be rather important.

As I said, perhaps efficiency it varies from area to area, Health Board to Health Board. Certainly waiting times for treatment can vary around the country.

I am not disputing the fact that more funding is needed but that has been the case for very many years.
We are also still paying the price for PFIs.

Germanshepherdsmum

Did you not read the post above from an ex-NHS employee concerning management? And posts saying that the NHS has been deteriorating for many years, before the Conservatives came into power? You can’t dismiss facts with this is all very interesting but’ because they don’t suit your political agenda.

One post from a disgruntled employee. Yes, I can give it less value. Of course lived experience should be heard but, unlike the Conservatives, I retain a greater faith in reports from "experts".

DaisyAnne you may well think what you do but that doesn’t make it true, the NHS has been heading downhill for a very long time under both Labour and Conservative governments.

MerylStreep

Halfpint
I know that feeling. Some time ago I was in for 24 hr observation.
When I was wheeled into that ward ( Southend hospital) I was back in the 1950’s in a hospital in London.

I know that feeling too, 16 years ago I had to visit my Mum daily in hospital as the only way to keep her clean was to do that.The hospital ward was dirty and they didn’t even change her sheets when needed.Bins were overflowing and crisp packets and other bits under the beds! There’s been money pumped into the NHS for a very long time no matter who’s in government and lazy practices and inefficiency as well.

Did you not read the post above from an ex-NHS employee concerning management? And posts saying that the NHS has been deteriorating for many years, before the Conservatives came into power? You can’t dismiss facts with this is all very interesting but’ because they don’t suit your political agenda.

This is all very interesting but the problem with NHS is underfunding. This gross scale of underfunding has us dropping to the bottom of the scale in so many areas, as shown in the independent report.

And what do the Conservatives do. Find another group to blame, as the have learned from the worst of the worst. This time it's those managing the NHS under the huge pressures heaped upon the whole workforce.

At some point, when the drains of 13 years of government are pulled up, and the stinking mass of lies are revealed, the blame will surely be put in the right place. Fairly and squarely on the shoulders of the Conservatives and, once more of the issues bite, those who maintain them in power.