Fifteen year old girl who killed her newborn baby

Glorianny

Casdon

This thread is going down exactly the same route as the one about the disabled lady and the elderly female cyclist.
We weren’t there, we didn’t have the evidence presented to us, including the psychiatric reports. We don’t know about the duration of her father’s illness, we don’t know that she was neglected, it’s all assumptions - but the report of her mother talking to her at the time she rang 999 is revealing. One thing I do know though Glorianny is what a crush injury is, if you can face it, look it up.

You may Casdon but the doctors in A&E didn't. When this person was admitted they described the injuries as being equivalent to being hit by a car. Eventually that was shown to be impossible and it was agreed they were the result of a fall.

Not quite, they said akin to being involved in a road accident I believe, if you read the transcript Germanshepherdsmum posted you will see exactly what type of injury it was. I don’t want to put the detail in my post about this or argue with you about it when the facts are there,

I wonder what any of us would have done at 15 if we had found ourselves pregnant? .... and in her family circumstances.

I can say with absolute certainty I would not have murdered my baby and certainly not in such a cold blooded way.

I believe the legal age of criminal responsibility is 10 - might be wrong. Do some of you wish to raise it? I also find it odd that some are referring to this girl as a child.I don’t class 15 year olds as children - they’re young teens.

Casdon

This thread is going down exactly the same route as the one about the disabled lady and the elderly female cyclist.
We weren’t there, we didn’t have the evidence presented to us, including the psychiatric reports. We don’t know about the duration of her father’s illness, we don’t know that she was neglected, it’s all assumptions - but the report of her mother talking to her at the time she rang 999 is revealing. One thing I do know though Glorianny is what a crush injury is, if you can face it, look it up.

You may Casdon but the doctors in A&E didn't. When this person was admitted they described the injuries as being equivalent to being hit by a car. Eventually that was shown to be impossible and it was agreed they were the result of a fall.

Thanks. Indeed, no judge wants to be overruled. As you have seen, there are sentencing guidelines they have to clearly show they have followed.

GSM - yes I did find the judgement useful to read. I meant to say thank you to you, but I was off to yoga.
It does help to understand the thinking behind sentencing and I'm aware of the fact that this will have been arrived at after careful thought. No judge wants to have his/ her rulings overturned on appeal, surely?

Bodach

" You've got to be mentally very unstable to actually kill any living thing, even an animal." Rather a sweeping statement, BlueBelle?

BlueBelle: you say a couple of pages back that you don't understand my post. I was attempting to suggest gently that your comment above (saying that anyone who kills any living thing, even an animal, has got to be mentally unstable) is a wild exaggeration. Are all anglers mentally unstable? Are all vets who euthanise sick animals mentally unstable? Are all soldiers who kill enemy soldiers on the battlefield mentally unstable? I think you are conflating killing with murder.

I meant in dispute among posters on this thread, sorry that wasn’t clear.

I feel strongly about the sad outlook for this poor girl but will withdraw from this discussion now. Can’t go on repeating myself.

The jury were invited to consider infanticide. They decided the crime was not infanticide but murder.
If you read the judgement (my impression that you haven’t) you will see that in sentencing full consideration was given to her age when she committed the crime. She was shown compassion and nothing is ‘in dispute’.

She killed the baby. Of course the jury found her guilty of murder.

It is the degree of premeditation versus panic reaction that is in dispute. Together with the degree of compassion for her age and needs shown in the sentencing. As I see it, that was 0.

The definition of infanticide given by Foxygloves seems to cover the circumstances. Not sure why it doesn't apply.

Read the judgement to understand how 12 years was calculated. It wasn’t an arbitrary figure.

I completely agree "Luckygirl".
What a terribly sad situation and 12 years is unbelievable.

I agree Luckygirl13 whilst it was a terrible thing she did I think there were some extenuating circumstances.

Paris Mayo could have asked for help at any point

I think we need to seriously consider where and how she might have asked for help. Not all children live in cosy families where they can chat to Mum and Dad about their situation. Not all children feel confident to talk to adults at school. It is very sad that she did not feel able to reach out for help, but she should not be condemned for that. I wonder what any of us would have done at 15 if we had found ourselves pregnant? .... and in her family circumstances.

Thanks. I hope you found it useful.

I did read the judgement GSM

The judge had expert reports before him and all the evidence. He explained how the sentence was reached. What is harsh or heavy handed about it? Did you note that the judge actually criticised the comments of the defence’s psychiatric expert? The starting point is that the jury, having heard all the evidence, had convicted her of murder.

You can’t remand to a secure psychiatric hospital someone who is not mentally ill.

I have read the judgement and my conclusion is that the judge acted harshly, or heavy handedly as the OP says.

He acknowledges that the mother was traumatised by the experience of giving birth alone. But he does not conclude that she panicked, esp when her brother returned home which seems obvious. She was 15. He does not consider the possibility that she refused to consider what was happening to her. Hoped against hope that it would all go away.

She need not have had underlying mental health problems to have been beside herself in that situation (interesting expression when you think).

From what is said of her background she was not 'neglected' in the usual sense of the word, but her family life was far from normal. It seems that her general wellbeing was overlooked and her self-esteem was low.

So, no, I can't agree that the judge's summary was fair and even-handed. If remanding her to a secure psychiatric hospital was an option I think it should have been taken.

Luckygirl3 Wed 05-Jul-23 09:42:17

A measured and compassionate post.
The poor baby suffered horribly and didn't deserve to die like that but what desperation drove her to do it?

Chocolatelovinggran

I was surprised by the long delay between the event and the trial.

Was she judged as a child or an adult?
She was 15 when she was pregnant but 19 by the time of the trial.

Do other people who were children when they kill someone receive such long terms of imprisonment?

It's always tempting when we hear of a particularly horrendous crime to assume that the perpetrator must have "mental health issues". I believe that's because what has happened is so very far beyond our understanding, that we can't imagine that any "sane" person could possibly behave in that way. Unfortunately, criminal cases prove time and time again that there is more often than not no mental instability involved, as proven by expert, professionally qualified witnesses, and that the perpetrator simply has a criminal mindset, which facilitates behaviour which, in its most extreme form could simply be described as "evil". I'm not suggesting that this applies in this particular case, as I simply don't know enough about it. However, its relevance will certainly have been carefully and expertly considered as the case unfolded.

@GSM,
Yes, I read the judgement, and think the Judge made a sensible and reasoned decision.
Paris Mayo could have asked for help at any point, but it is my firm belief that she concealed both her pregnancy and the birth of her son as she had already decided to 'dispose' of that poor child.
Many teenagers have a tough life, but they don't murder their own children in such a horrific and heartless manner.

Has anyone read the link to the judgement which I posted?

I was surprised by the long delay between the event and the trial.

All my sorrow is for that poor innocent baby.

I find it really troubling that whenever someone does anything a ‘normal’ person would consider evil they must be mentally ill.

Human beings are incredibly complex and we don’t all think the same. Some people enjoy quite extreme pain in order to become sexually aroused, others enjoy inflicting extreme pain for the same reason. I, personally, find both behaviours abnormal. Are these people mentally ill? A psychiatrist would say no; just a quirk in their personality. There are lots of behaviours I and others find strange or disturbing but that doesn’t make someone ill, just outside of what’s considered normal.

Does hating people of a different skin colour mean you’re mentally ill or does it mean you’re a nasty racist? Does being a bullying, coercive control freak of a husband mean you’re mentally ill? I doubt any of you would think so. So just because a 15 year old girl murders her newborn son it doesn’t follow that she’s ill.

FWIW I thought the sentence harsh but I didn’t hear all the evidence and judges have to follow guidelines and if she was found guilty of murder the judge has to sentence accordingly. A shame that it was 4 years after the event.