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Running down the NHS so it has to be privatised?

(110 Posts)
foxie48 Fri 14-Jul-23 08:28:30

6% pay increase for junior doctors to be paid out of existing funding! I don't think the Junior doctors will accept this so we will see further strikes and more doctors leaving the NHS. I think the consultants will also continue with their action and more will decide to work part time or retire early. I'm not sure where the RCN is but clearly many nurses are still unhappy with their pay. I think we are seeing a deliberate "run down" of the NHS in an attempt to make a partial privatisation of the NHS more acceptable to most of the population. Scotland negotiated a deal with their junior doctors, which I think will be accepted. The UK govt has not negotiated and I can't help thinking this was part of a plan to ensure that no deal was reached. I can't help but think we are seeing the beginning of the end of the NHS as we know it. Having seen how privatisation has gone with our water companies, energy, prisons, social care etc, this fills me with dread.

foxie48 Mon 24-Jul-23 16:55:15

www.health.org.uk/news-and-comment/charts-and-infographics/how-does-uk-health-spending-compare-across-europe-over-the-past-decade
www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/healthcaresystem/articles/howdoesukhealthcarespendingcomparewithothercountries/2019-08-29
These are a couple of reports from pretty reliable sources that would disagree with him. We did spend a lot in 2020 though, more than most countries, I think we bought a lot of PPE and spent lots on track and tracing, Nightingale hospitals etc but that's not exactly indicative of overall spending, is it?

DaisyAnneReturns Mon 24-Jul-23 22:48:27

The figures he is using are on graphs on the video I linked. I feel I can hear doors slaming all over GN as minds stay firmly closed.

I doubt any one person has all the answers but you are often single source researcher, if I remember rightly.

Freya5 Tue 25-Jul-23 08:50:24

M0nica

there is no intention of any political party to privatise the NHS, whatever that might mean. We are one of many countries providing a free public health service to their inhabitants and there are many and various waysof doing this.

When public helath services are ranked, we come seventh. The things we are worse at are giving patients access to resources and the quality of our health outcomes. the two real basics of care.

I thinkwe need to have a damn good look at the ways other countries do the same job better and learn from them.

We should certainly be looking at how other countries fund their health care, they pay higher taxes, hence Gov confound more. Can't see the British, who don't seem to want to pay more for anything health wise, going for that though. Perhaps each individual, along with pension subs should also pay into a long term social care fund, which supports people in need of long term care. After all even if young, one never knows.

M0nica Wed 26-Jul-23 07:33:42

Political parties keep saying that electors are only interested in low taxes. I have yet to meet anyone who isn't willing to pay extra taxes to get better services, whether health or road repairs.

DaisyAnneReturns Wed 26-Jul-23 14:18:54

Going back to the short speech/talk I flagged.

This knowledgeable person (others have different and equally valuable knowledge) says that we do not generally pay less than others for health but that our wonderful NHS suffers from age-related issues.

It simply hasn't caught up with modern-day applications, and our increase in longevity has led to a weighting of spend on older people. The speaker pointed out that 10% of our NHS spend goes on the last year of life.

To deal with this, he suggests we need to unblock the bottlenecks. They are in both hospital and General Practice. He also suggested that the NHS must embrace joined-up information technology and the early-age use of AI.

From what he says about us generally being in step with other countries in what we pay, it seems we are in a place that is very similar to most businesses that are early adopters. The people who set up the first weaving shops to have mechanised looms were overtaken some years later by those buying bigger and better looms. Such companies may have still been paying for the very expensive early loom. This is where the NHS is.

His suggestion for upgrading the service is to take the emphasis off the hospitals and GPs and bring hospital services into the community. This would be possible with the amount we are paying if we ignore the fact that we have high costs from a very elderly and frail part of the population. We get no help from those on the extremes crying for only state-run or only private health services. We must learn from them both. It was always the case that the Private sector could learn from the Public sector and vice versa.

My bias would be to always be towards a mixed economy. This doesn't necessarily mean hiving off parts of the public service but just allowing private businesses to offer the best they can. We then have models we can look to, when it comes to improving public service.

It seems we can either, using our present system of raising money, have a service focused on caring for the old and vulnerable or a service using analytical methods to preempt illness and known conditions. We now have to understand how we can pay for both if we are to keep our NHS.

I would suggest that we move towards the community-based system many are in favour of. In fact, it is actually happening with peripatetic visits to community clinics by various consultants. This, and tracking possible conditions early, would/could be paid for out of the current budget.

Since the founding of the NHS, life expectancy has increased by around 13 years. More people are living with cancer or dementia, and other diseases due largely to increases in life expectancy and a fall in the rate of premature death.

Ceasing to pay for National Insurance post State Retirement age may have seemed fair in 1948, but now, with so much of the country's wealth in the hands of those who have retired, I can't see how it is. I believe it's time for this extended longevity and the comfort we have known financially to be balanced.

I would suggest the introduction of SNI or Seniors National Insurance to be paid by everyone, possibly at a lower rate than NI, from state pension age to death. The cost of "Care" at younger ages should then be paid from the current budget. The cost of elderly care should go down as the early intervention system takes away some of the frailty and complexity of conditions.

foxie48 Wed 26-Jul-23 15:46:25

So the Junior Doctors have announced a further 4 day strike in August and the consultants will also strike again for two days just before the August Bank holiday. This is not going away.

MadeInYorkshire Wed 26-Jul-23 16:19:54

Of course it's a plan to sell it off - it has been since Maggie Dearest. You can bet most MP's will have their grubby little fingers in the private healthcare/insurance pie.

I had a Facebook memory come up the other day - in 2011, I actually said that it was already changing and going downhill, with a view to privatise it, and sadly as a heavy user of the NHS, with an average of one surgery per year over the last 25 years, I have literally watched it die. I am now scared about my next admission. It will be an emergency scenario, I will self treat at home with Morphine to begin with in the hope that it is only a partial bowel blockage, of which I have maybe had 30 over the years. If after several hours I can't get the very severe pain to resolve then I know that I will need more help and call for an ambulance. IF that ambulance comes in good time and IF there aren't any backlogs in A&E, and they aren't queuing for hours outside, I MAY get seen in time before my bowel strangulates and dies, then burst and gives me sepsis. I am really not holding my breath ....

“That’s the standard technique of privatization: defund, make sure things don’t work, people get angry, you hand it over to private capital.” Norm Chomsky

foxie48 Wed 26-Jul-23 16:45:39

MadeInYorkshire Reading your post clarifies why I am so concerned about privatisation, it is people with chronic conditions who will be most affected. I'm sorry that you have to cope with this. Chomsky is absolutely correct and if you can ensure that you deflect the blame for poor performance onto those who are delivering it rather than those who make the decisions about funding, it's a double win.

Fleurpepper Wed 26-Jul-23 17:48:31

''“That’s the standard technique of privatization: defund, make sure things don’t work, people get angry, you hand it over to private capital.” Norm Chomsky''

it is so terrifyingly simple, unfortunately.

Of course Chomsky, the private sector à la American is only interested in making a proft. When someone becomes expensive to treat, they will put premiums up so high that people can't pay, or palm off the expensive part on the NHS- excluding those conditions.