An election looms, so I think it is time to look at all the success over the 13 years that we have witnessed from the government.

Owen Jones is an idiot, best ignored. I am a centrist and would rather those on the left remained in the party. I can cope I dont like anyone being forced out whether that's the left, women whoever.

Ilovecheese

Well, MayBee70 I gave him a chance when I voted for him as leader, but that was because I believed he meant the pledges he made in order to get himself elected.

Do you have some insight into the background, the specific reasons why they were broken Ilovecheese? I think that is one of the biggest rubs in the party. My belief is that he is a pragmatic leader, the more he learns about situations and issues the less he commits to radical change because he recognises what is achievable - and just as importantly, what the electorate are prepared to accept. He will be about delivery, not headlines. The left have been unable to come to terms with that approach, and see it as a betrayal. So we’re now in a position where the electorate will vote Labour, but the Labour of moderation, not the Labour of radical change. I can’t see how that can be resolved to the left’s satisfaction.

And are the electorate bothered about that? What did Corbyn deliver?

Well, MayBee70 I gave him a chance when I voted for him as leader, but that was because I believed he meant the pledges he made in order to get himself elected.

nightowl

DaisyAnneReturns

nightowl

Fair enough Daisy. But I don’t believe socialist = far left so there may be more of us than you think
I believe debate strengthens a party, shutting down debate (as is happening in the LP at the moment) just kills free thought and creates a monster.

I'm sorry I misunderstood what you were saying. I'm sure Starmer is a socialist. One of my worries, the opposite of yours, is how much of a socialist he is. I am pinning my hopes on my belief that he is equally as much a pragmatist. So far I have been able to believe that he is.

He seems to have good political advisors currently. I just hope he will continue to listen to them and that he will blend enough of both to rescue the country from the results of the last 13 years, during next five years.

By then he would be finding some challenges from the voters and would hopefully see a good reason for PR.

I don’t think it’s possible to be a ‘little bit socialist’ Daisy I think it’s a very clear belief system.

As Tony Benn, God bless him, famously said ‘the LP has never been a socialist party but it has always had socialists in it’. It looks as if the majority - on here as well as in the party - no longer want that to be allowed.

Not when those socialists eg Owen Jones are doing everything in their power to bad mouth Keir and stop people voting for him. What good is that going to achieve? I was prepared to give Corbyn a chance. How about giving Keir a chance? He could have happily continued with his law work but imo went into politics because if his mum working for the NHS. Most of the Labour supporters I know are middle class: the poorer people I know vote Conservative.

nightowl

DaisyAnneReturns

nightowl

Fair enough Daisy. But I don’t believe socialist = far left so there may be more of us than you think
I believe debate strengthens a party, shutting down debate (as is happening in the LP at the moment) just kills free thought and creates a monster.

I'm sorry I misunderstood what you were saying. I'm sure Starmer is a socialist. One of my worries, the opposite of yours, is how much of a socialist he is. I am pinning my hopes on my belief that he is equally as much a pragmatist. So far I have been able to believe that he is.

He seems to have good political advisors currently. I just hope he will continue to listen to them and that he will blend enough of both to rescue the country from the results of the last 13 years, during next five years.

By then he would be finding some challenges from the voters and would hopefully see a good reason for PR.

I don’t think it’s possible to be a ‘little bit socialist’ Daisy I think it’s a very clear belief system.

As Tony Benn, God bless him, famously said ‘the LP has never been a socialist party but it has always had socialists in it’. It looks as if the majority - on here as well as in the party - no longer want that to be allowed.

It’s doomed to be a forever unhappy marriage nightowl, so having recognised that the factions within the party don’t want to conduct change in the same way or to the same degree, it’s kinder to break now. Otherwise this will rumble on for ever. I genuinely don’t understand why the left don’t break away and form a party which suits their agenda - unless at bottom they know that isn’t what the majority of the population want so they won’t succeed alone. The reality is that about 60% of the electorate are ‘in the middle’ in my opinion.

DaisyAnneReturns

nightowl

Fair enough Daisy. But I don’t believe socialist = far left so there may be more of us than you think
I believe debate strengthens a party, shutting down debate (as is happening in the LP at the moment) just kills free thought and creates a monster.

I'm sorry I misunderstood what you were saying. I'm sure Starmer is a socialist. One of my worries, the opposite of yours, is how much of a socialist he is. I am pinning my hopes on my belief that he is equally as much a pragmatist. So far I have been able to believe that he is.

He seems to have good political advisors currently. I just hope he will continue to listen to them and that he will blend enough of both to rescue the country from the results of the last 13 years, during next five years.

By then he would be finding some challenges from the voters and would hopefully see a good reason for PR.

I don’t think it’s possible to be a ‘little bit socialist’ Daisy I think it’s a very clear belief system.

As Tony Benn, God bless him, famously said ‘the LP has never been a socialist party but it has always had socialists in it’. It looks as if the majority - on here as well as in the party - no longer want that to be allowed.

Ken Loach is very popular in France. We watched I Daniel Blake in a cinema with mostly French people. The people we were with said that similar things happen in France too.
It was and still is an indictment of UK politics.

Long Bailey is too much like Corbyn to be acceptable to the centre left.

I think that Starmer is scared of the right wing press and is trying to convince them that he is not like Corbyn.

The electorate were offered socialism and they rejected it. So why should it be offered to them again. To be quite honest, me and my family are fairly secure whichever party is in power so I’m tempted to not bother spending another chunk of my life campaigning for a Labour government. I was hounded out of the Labour Party years ago for not being left wing enough for them and I’ve only recently rejoined. If people want another five years of Tory rule because Keir isn’t socialist enough sobeit.I still voted for Corbyn even though he was anti EU ( but never had the decency to admit it). At least Keir came on our marches.

nightowl

Fair enough Daisy. But I don’t believe socialist = far left so there may be more of us than you think
I believe debate strengthens a party, shutting down debate (as is happening in the LP at the moment) just kills free thought and creates a monster.

I'm sorry I misunderstood what you were saying. I'm sure Starmer is a socialist. One of my worries, the opposite of yours, is how much of a socialist he is. I am pinning my hopes on my belief that he is equally as much a pragmatist. So far I have been able to believe that he is.

He seems to have good political advisors currently. I just hope he will continue to listen to them and that he will blend enough of both to rescue the country from the results of the last 13 years, during next five years.

By then he would be finding some challenges from the voters and would hopefully see a good reason for PR.

David Lammy commented on the excellence of Cathy Come Home and I Daniel Blake on his radio programme the other day. My husband remarked that he’d better be careful if he values his place in the PLP.

If only that were a joke, when we see what happened to a good friend for crimes unspecified it’s a living nightmare.

MaisieD described what those of us who voted for Keir Starmer as leader thought we would get with him as leader

" a society in which there is a more equable distribution of wealth, a duty of care for vulnerable members of society and greater equality between its citizens."

But that doesn't seem to be what he is promising any more.
He wants to win, but then what? More trickle down economics, more private companies involved in the NHS, more PFIs.
He is appealing to Conservative voters, yes, and he does need them, but I do think he should show some willingness to accommodate people within the party that don't agree with Conservative ideology, and not dismiss them for silly reasons like talking to Ken Loach.
Incidentally, The Pope had good words to say to Ken Loach.

MaizieD

Well, I'm sorry, MayBee, but when a popular and very effective Labour Mayor is not put on the candidate list for the next Mayoral election, or when really quite moderate party members are thrown out for liking a supposedly 'left wing' tweet, or any of the other absurd decisions that have been made by Labour HQ one wonders how long Rayner and any like her in the shadow cabinet can survive.

There seems to be a degree of extreme intolerance being exercised which is incomprehensible to the ordinary left of centre voter.

Or will Keir step into a telephone box on the day his party achieves a parliamentary majority and leap out a s a socialist caped crusader?

Completely agree with this Maizie

They’re mostly still around though, if not in office.

I agree with DAR, that Johnson culled everyone who would be a threat to him, by being more capable than he was.

Well, I'm sorry, MayBee, but when a popular and very effective Labour Mayor is not put on the candidate list for the next Mayoral election, or when really quite moderate party members are thrown out for liking a supposedly 'left wing' tweet, or any of the other absurd decisions that have been made by Labour HQ one wonders how long Rayner and any like her in the shadow cabinet can survive.

There seems to be a degree of extreme intolerance being exercised which is incomprehensible to the ordinary left of centre voter.

Or will Keir step into a telephone box on the day his party achieves a parliamentary majority and leap out a s a socialist caped crusader?

nightowl

Fair enough Daisy. But I don’t believe socialist = far left so there may be more of us than you think
I believe debate strengthens a party, shutting down debate (as is happening in the LP at the moment) just kills free thought and creates a monster.

But. Corbyn pushed all of the centre left politicians to the side. I can still picture him looking daggers at Hilary Benn one day when he was giving an amazing speech in parliament. Would Long Bailey be a better leader than Keir? Would Labour be ahead in the polls if she were? How about the fact that Angela is deputy leader? Isn’t that pretty balanced?

I'm with you...

I' with you, nightowl.

I think it's unfortunate that 'socialist' still has strong associations with the regimes of the former soviet union and I wish there were a better word to describe the desire for a society in which there is a more equable distribution of wealth, a duty of care for vulnerable members of society and greater equality between its citizens.

Fair enough Daisy. But I don’t believe socialist = far left so there may be more of us than you think
I believe debate strengthens a party, shutting down debate (as is happening in the LP at the moment) just kills free thought and creates a monster.

Genuine question, given that you say the Conservatives don’t have a single expert among them, in government or in politics (which I assume is meant to include MPs with no ministerial role). So please answer my question, if you can.

Germanshepherdsmum

How many experts does Labour have DAR?

I am sure you wrote without thinking as you will know that, as well as not giving you the answer you want GSM, that is a totally fallacious argument.

against Bexit against membership of the EU

How many experts does Labour have DAR?

I think your "broad church" simply won't command sufficient voters nightowl. That's why we need PR. Then all the hard-left votes in the country will count to give the far right probably 9 - 11% or similar, of the vote and therefore the seats.

It will then be up to that party to see if they can form a coalition. The ability to be part of that coalition will be based on who else has been voted for and what they can agree on with other parties can.

No group that represents no more than 11% of the country should be able, or be in a position to govern it. That's what's happened over the last 13 years although I imagine that the hard-right are only about 9% of the country as they are believed to be fewer than the hard-left in the UK. I don't think it's a good example to follow in the future.