Lucy Letby found guilty.

Expressing the issues involved in physically dragging a convicted offender into Court is not showing misplaced sympathy for the offender as eazybee suggested to Franbern earlier.
It’s simply acknowledging it’s not as straightforward as we might wish.

I've been avoiding this thread because it is just too much. Too painful.

The idea that we live in a society that includes women like this is just so devastating and abhorant

All through the existence of humanity we have tried to understand why human beings would abuse each other, physically hurt each other and even murder each other, even tiny defenseless children. We have tried through religion and we have tried through psychology and still... None of it helps, none of it goes anyway towards understanding how any person can commit an act like this.

No matter their mental health status or their own upbringing or any trauma they suffered, people like this woman knows what they are doing is wrong and are free at any point to seek help.

I just cannot ever understand the origins of this kind of evil and it makes me hope there is some sort of punishment in the afterlife because prison is not enough

EEJit

Letby given a whole life sentence. Shame we no longer have capital punishment

I disagree. With Capital Punishment her life would be over quickly and, if you believe in reincarnation that wouldn't be a problem.

To my mind a whole life sentence would be far worse. she will be in solitary confinement for most of her life. Child killers get a hard time in prison from the other inmates and she will probably spend her life wondering where/when an attack would occur.

GoldenAge

A view from a psychotherapist - LL is not insane, the insane are not capable of holding down a responsible (even a non-responsible in some cases) job. LL turned up for her shifts, cared for herself/appearance, planned her actions, and showed a caring attitude to the parents of the babies she murdered. She's a sociopath/psychopath (same thing) like other serial killers and should be kept behind bars - the greatest happiness for the greatest number. However, in my opinion, every single manager who was approached by anyone expressing concerns about these baby deaths, whether they have left the organisation or not should be prosecuted.

However, in my opinion, every single manager who was approached by anyone expressing concerns about these baby deaths, whether they have left the organisation or not should be prosecuted.

Considering that it is not the first time that this has happened within the NHS - with all the resultant hand-wringing and "we must ensure there are checks and balances in place so that this never happens again" rhetoric (those lessons never do get learned do they?)... yes, they should.

Will we know how many babies could've been saved if they'd listened?

I hope these individuals have it on their conscience for the remainder of their lives.

Anniebach

Do we shackle prisoners ?

No, we do not, Anniebach, nor should we. But could the court proceedings not have been played via cctv to her cell? No sound allowed from her. I simply cannot get my head around the whole thing, it’s hard to believe in such evil. Those poor parents and families.

Had LL been in court for the sentencing I doubt that the families of those poor babies would have gained any comfort.

She has been described as being a psychopath or a sociopath. Here's a description of those two states which explains why:

"Both psychopathy and sociopathy (also referred to as antisocial personality disorder or ASPD) are characterized by a pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others.
A sociopath is a person with a personality disorder that is marked by traits of impulsivity, risk-taking, and violence. A psychopath is a person who has an antisocial personality disorder characterized by a lack of regard for the rights and feelings of others, controlled and manipulative behavior, the absence of shame, and an inability to form emotional relationships.
Deceit and manipulation are central aspects of both personality types. However, even though they are often confused with one another because they manifest in similar ways, these are two distinct forms of personality disorders."

Had the families been faced with such a response I think that they would end feeling even worse than they already did.

There’s always the chance that she would have made a scene and turned it into all about her. Shane she could get away with such disrespect but it may have been better.

This morning's paper reported on this issue, and it seems that some who have been forcibly brought into court have then screamed, thrown themselves on the floor of the dock and refused to get up, shut their eyes, and made the procedure about them. Logically unless you sedate and shackle a person to a chair, how can you force them to stay and listen? So hard for the families and victims when this happens, but also the court officials/police would have to risk being assaulted, spat at or worse.

I also think she should have been made to face the judge to hear her fate.

Of course she should. I am very surprised at that rule where she can avoid it. I don’t think they have that here but I may be wrong, never heard of it. They are still dancing to her tune, aren’t they ?

How would you achieve this Sheila11?

NO they're not dancing to Letbys tune. It's the LAWS OF this country that needs addressing regarding this.nanna8.

Primrose53

CatsCatsCats

So glad she has received a whole life sentence for each and every child she killed or harmed.

It was interesting, though, to hear of reasons why it's not that straightforward to force a prisoner to attend court. One is that there is only a limited amount of force that can be used. The other is that the convicted person might make the appearance all about themselves by "causing havoc" as did the people who murdered Lee Rigby. It should be about the families of the victims to put across their point of view.

We have Keir Starmer to thank for allowing prisoners that choice. Until he put his oar in, prisoners were always made to appear in the dock.

I have just seen a very senior member of the Police on TV who said in his career he never heard of such a thing as criminals being allowed to stay in their cell.

Wrong

“We have Keir Starmer to thank for allowing prisoners that choice. Until he put his oar in, prisoners were always made to appear in the dock.”

The most recent guidelines were introduced in 2019.

As far as you must be aware Starmer was a member of parliament in 2019.

However I’d be happy to be corrected.

I have not heard all of the evidence and I'm not saying that the jury has it wrong but there have been so many cases where people have been found guilty and years later that decision has been reversed (look at the man recently released after 19 years for a crime he did not commit), I wonder if there can be total faith in the result.. My other fears are that she did not act alone . Yes, we've heard that there were many Drs that made complaints but did any co-workers (nurses) raise concerns?

Mollygo

There’s always the chance that she would have made a scene and turned it into all about her. Shane she could get away with such disrespect but it may have been better.

Yes I absolutely agree with this. If she had been forced to attend and made a fuss - once again it would have been about that wretched woman.

Instead we have had quiet respect listening to the families statements, and the satisfaction that she is gone and hopefully forgotten.

In fact, Keir Starmer is reported by today’s independent of demanding Sunak ‘get on with it’ in ensuring convicted offenders appear in the dock for sentencing

It would seem from their comments that the poor parents of these babies were upset she was not in court to hear her sentencing, and I’m sure none of us could ever imagine what they have been through, therefore whatever they want should be put in place.

Iam64- they would take her from her cell to the court, by force if necessary.

I heard the victim statements as I was driving at lunchtime and the tears simply ran down my face.
We lost our first baby at 24 days (50 years ago) and the pain came back and just hit me in the solar plexus

Foxy 🌺.

Sheila11

Iam64- they would take her from her cell to the court, by force if necessary.

I absolutely felt like this yesterday, but I have been reading a barristers’ explanation about the difficulties over this issue, and find myself having changed my mind.

The whole situation is fraught with difficulties.

Foxygloves

I heard the victim statements as I was driving at lunchtime and the tears simply ran down my face.
We lost our first baby at 24 days (50 years ago) and the pain came back and just hit me in the solar plexus

Oh foxy my heart goes out to anyone having lost a baby.

Sheila11

Iam64- they would take her from her cell to the court, by force if necessary.

I’m not defending Letby. She murdered and seriously harmed defenceless infants, leaving their parents and extended families bereft and facing life long pain. She pleaded not guilty, forcing the families to listen to graphic evidence. I’ve no doubt the jury members will be haunted by their dutiful involvement. She will remain in prison until she dies.

My question remains. Who is to physically force an offender into the dock? Prison officers face violence daily. Are we to add to that risk. It also gives the offender an opportunity to make scenes which are unlikely to help grieving relatives. Proceedings could be screened into their cell at the court

I’ll try and copy and paste the Barristers explanation.

I too have lost a full term baby, a boy, and I think her sentance is the right one.
I don't agree she should be made to go to court to hear judgement passed, unfortunately the law states she foes not have to, so she is excersing that right.
I don't believe that mental heath is a excuse for what she carried out and she should be punished to the full extent of the law, I would say she still knows right from wrong.
I want justice for the parents, not vengeance like some who are talking about the death penalty.