What is left about Labour now?

Grany ?

Surely we need a LP that is electable rather than one that promises but is never in a position to deliver anything. Starmer may have been elected by the LP as leader but it is the voters who will decide if he will be PM or not. I thought HH's interview on the World at One was just what was needed and I'm pleased AR is going to shadow levelling up, not so sure about her staying Dep Leader but I just want to see a change of govt and from what I heard today I think it's becoming more of a reality.

Oh come on a government that has screwed up so much and most of it by cutting corners. Sky high prices for fuel, polluted water, a failing NHS, schools collapsing, the list is endless. Surely it is the perfect time to commit to doing things differently? Promising to protect the NHS and stopping privatisation, a good building programme for schools, non-profit making provision of energy and water, a system for replacing social housing would all gather votes. Explaining clearly that money will need to be found to overcome the Tory legacy would be popular and easy. And might just improve the lives of some people.

Glorianny I don't disagree with most of what that you have said and I hope that a new govt will be able to make substantial changes but I understand why Starmer might be being cautious and want to get his feet under the table before making too many promises.

Explaining clearly that money will need to be found to overcome the Tory legacy would be popular and easy.

If that involves telling voters that their taxes are going to have to increase I can't see it being at all popular. And what a gift for the right wing press for the next 15 or so months.

MaizieD

^Explaining clearly that money will need to be found to overcome the Tory legacy would be popular and easy.^

If that involves telling voters that their taxes are going to have to increase I can't see it being at all popular. And what a gift for the right wing press for the next 15 or so months.

Does taxation fund government spending?
Where did the money come from to save the banks?
Where did the money come from to fund furlows in lockdown?
Or the money the government wasted on useless PPE and testing?

Yes, why give the media ammunition when the Tory party is doing such a good job of shifting votes to the LP?

Glorianny

MaizieD

Explaining clearly that money will need to be found to overcome the Tory legacy would be popular and easy.

If that involves telling voters that their taxes are going to have to increase I can't see it being at all popular. And what a gift for the right wing press for the next 15 or so months.

Does taxation fund government spending?
Where did the money come from to save the banks?
Where did the money come from to fund furlows in lockdown?
Or the money the government wasted on useless PPE and testing?

No, taxation doesn't fund spending, government spends first and taxes it back. But that is a very heterodox view (even though empirically proven) and most voters, commentators, media and politicians believe that taxation does fund spending and associate increased government spending with increased taxation.

You know very well that I've been explaining about taxation and government spending on here for years (starting with defending the 2019 Labour manifesto IIRC). To much disbelief, occasionally bordering on abuse. It's a very hard myth to dispel.

TBH, I thought that Hunt's statement yesterday that the government would spend whatever it takes to rectify the RAAC problem was like a tacit admission that the government can 'create' however much it needs. It was stamped on pretty quickly by the Treasury, though, wasn't it? Can't have the truth getting out as it makes a mockery of all that dreadful 'austerity'.

The monies you cite came from pure money creation by the BoE. As I assume you already know

Your economic theory may be right or wrong Maizie

But either way, should the Labout Party not be taxing the rich, who have got richer under the Tories, and using the proceeds for the public good?

varian

Your economic theory may be right or wrong Maizie

But either way, should the Labout Party not be taxing the rich, who have got richer under the Tories, and using the proceeds for the public good?

Indeed. They should be looking at making the tax system more progressive and removing many of the tax advantages have. Tax should be used to redistribute the nation's money, among other things and stop the wealthy accumulating more than their fair share.

It just isn't necessary to tax before spending.

(It's not my economic theory, it's recognised by many economists, just not the 'mainstream' ones who adhere to neoliberal economic theory. The one which has been supreme since Thatcher on wards and is responsible for such an uneven distribution of wealth. And austerity... )

...many of the tax advantages the wealthy have...

Forget the Ultra Rich they will always pay experts to avoid tax, it’s popular to tax the rich but will produce very little extra. The bulk of the wealth is held in property, shares and pensions, it is taxed in many ways when it is liquidated.
For example, when property is sold CGT is paid when it’s inherited IHT is paid and if it’s rented out Income Tax is paid and when you get your pension you pay tax as income.

Personally an increase in tax rates across the board is needed, if Starmer is not willing to do that I don’t see how services are going to improve

Exclusive: Starmer regime removes all Corbyn-era videos but one

Keir Starmer’s cowardly purge of the Labour left has extended even to the party’s YouTube page – every Jeremy Corbyn-era video but one (Corbyn’s 2019 conference speech) has been deleted from the channel in an attempt to airbrush Corbyn out of history, leaving a staggering nine-year gap in the video record:

Starmer is right to be afraid: Corbyn’s sincerity, authenticity and actual vision for the UK backed by actual policies shed a merciless light on the craven, empty and deceitful moral vacuum that is Keir Starmer.

skwawkbox.org/2023/09/04/exclusive-starmer-regime-removes-all-corbyn-era-videos-but-one/

Grany of course you are entitled to your opinion but that's not how many voters saw him. Personally I thought he was a complete disaster for the LP and I know many LP members who thought the same and left the party. It would be great if parties could be a "broad church" of opinion but that just doesn't seem to work. Just look at the Conservatives, tearing their party to pieces, the LP doesn't need to do anything but let them implode. I don't want that for the LP, do you?

Personally an increase in tax rates across the board is needed, if Starmer is not willing to do that I don’t see how services are going to improve

You know what, Katie59? The sky is not going to fall in if Starmer spends first and then taxes back. The Bank of England is obliged by law to pay out whatever money the government, in parliament, authorises it to pay. Governments have been funded like this for centuries.

The key issue is who the government money actually ends up wit; the already wealthy or the rest of the population....

Grany

Exclusive: Starmer regime removes all Corbyn-era videos but one

Keir Starmer’s cowardly purge of the Labour left has extended even to the party’s YouTube page – every Jeremy Corbyn-era video but one (Corbyn’s 2019 conference speech) has been deleted from the channel in an attempt to airbrush Corbyn out of history, leaving a staggering nine-year gap in the video record:

Starmer is right to be afraid: Corbyn’s sincerity, authenticity and actual vision for the UK backed by actual policies shed a merciless light on the craven, empty and deceitful moral vacuum that is Keir Starmer.

skwawkbox.org/2023/09/04/exclusive-starmer-regime-removes-all-corbyn-era-videos-but-one/

You know I voted for Corbyn as party leader and hoped fervently that he would win the 2019 because I could see that Johnson would be a total disaster for the U.K. and so it proved. Johnson’s legacy will be suffered for years to come.

However, there were a number of issues that I had with Corbyn, not least that he was an abysmal leader, but I think he was less than honest in a number of things, and muddled in many of his policies. I was pleased when he lost the leadership.

Corbyn is not the right leader for the Labour Party, we need someone with greater integrity, strength of leadership and unafraid to make difficult decisions.

We have that in Starmer.

Grany

Exclusive: Starmer regime removes all Corbyn-era videos but one

Keir Starmer’s cowardly purge of the Labour left has extended even to the party’s YouTube page – every Jeremy Corbyn-era video but one (Corbyn’s 2019 conference speech) has been deleted from the channel in an attempt to airbrush Corbyn out of history, leaving a staggering nine-year gap in the video record:

Starmer is right to be afraid: Corbyn’s sincerity, authenticity and actual vision for the UK backed by actual policies shed a merciless light on the craven, empty and deceitful moral vacuum that is Keir Starmer.

skwawkbox.org/2023/09/04/exclusive-starmer-regime-removes-all-corbyn-era-videos-but-one/

He isn’t afraid though. The positions offered were accepted by everybody. Labour is 18 points ahead in the polls. There is now a really strong shadow cabinet with experience, which is important. The ducks are lining up.

"Integrity " "strength of leadership " not qualities I associate with Starmer after he broke all the pledges he made in order to win the leadership.

Integrity ? Wreath laying ceremony for Munich terrorists -
‘I was there but I don’t think I was involved’

"least 200,000 have quit Labour, this, when according to polls, Labour seem close to power. What does that tell you? Many more hang on feeling utterly despondent at the prospect of Starmer, Reeves and Streeting et al.

Corbyn could campaign anywhere and organically generate big, enthusiastic crowds. Starmer likely won’t be able to campaign in public at all, for all the shouts of “liar”. No, he’ll likely campaign like Theresa May did in 2017, at deserted aircraft hangers, with selected press only, or factory/farm tours surrounded by armed security.

This is why a Corbyn fronted party would attract support – it’d be an organic, genuine political entity. You’ve seen the recent YouGov poll presumably? The one that shows just shy of 60% of the voting public feel neither of the big two parties represent their political views? There is a gaping hole in British politics where a party of the left should be. This is why it’d take off."
skwawkbox.org/2023/09/04/exclusive-starmer-regime-removes-all-corbyn-era-videos-but-one/#:~:text=least%20200%2C000%20have,it%E2%80%99d%20take%20off.

Ilovecheese

"Integrity " "strength of leadership " not qualities I associate with Starmer after he broke all the pledges he made in order to win the leadership.

Starmer is doing what is necessary to first win the leadership and then the election, and is playing the long game.

I was wobbling for a while, but now after reading and listening extensively, I am absolutely convinced that he is the right man for the job.

We simply cannot tolerate another 5 years of the Tories, the country has been totally ruined over the past 13 years and it will be entirely finished off if they get in again.

Yes, there are some policies with which I can’t entirely agree, and yes there are to my mind emergency issues that I am not clear on Labour’s policy, but they will have no alternative but to tackle them (water for a start), and I’m hoping that they will be ruthless. But I agree with far more and am clear what the policy announcements so far are what the country badly needs.

"least 200,000 have quit Labour, this, when according to polls, Labour seem close to power. What does that tell you? Many more hang on feeling utterly despondent at the prospect of Starmer, Reeves and Streeting et al.”

I think what it tells me is quite how small a faction the left of the party actually was grany.

What I hope is that Starmer is ensuring that the rump of left wingers do not become the ERG of the Labour Party. We have all witnessed what that has done to the Tory party and it must not be allowed to happen to the Labour Party.

I do hope you are right about him WW2. But it might have been a better idea to include rather than exclude left wingers if they are not to become an irritant to him.

Ilovecheese

I do hope you are right about him WW2. But it might have been a better idea to include rather than exclude left wingers if they are not to become an irritant to him.

Yes, it might, but Starmer is too strong a character to allow the tail to wag the dog, he would never allow himself to get into the position that most of the Tory leaders have found themselves in since 2010 with the sort of results we are witnessing.

I suspect that the left is never going to compromise, judging by the couple of posters on here.

Political leaders have to be pretty ruthless - and focused.