What is left about Labour now?

MayBee70

Never saw Keir as a power crazed megalomaniac. I think if he just wanted personal power he had plenty of that in his previous job. You only have to hear him talk about his upbringing to realise that he wants to do what’s best for this country. I’m not aware of him being massively unpopular either. He was regarded as being a bit land but I think the electorate have realised that funny charismatic leaders aren’t actually the best ones to lead the country.

Neither did I MayBee. It seems to be my day for being taken aback.

I see him as someone who wants to get things done, is prepared to go through all necessary stages to achieve that, while taking the vagueries of Parliament and politics into account. It's a big ask, and I am sure there will be disappointments.

I put up a a link earlier. On it Chris Bryant talks a out how Parliament has been sidelined and how the rules could be made to work. I was shocked by the short days and the shortage of time for debates. He suggested that instead of one MP (JRS at one point) you have a committee of 5,7 or 9 running the arrangements for parliamentary business.

It's not everyone's cup of tea. It's not a channel I usually watch but he also talks about how to ensure current rules are obeyed (I think there was a nod to the current Speaker with that).

Anyway, it's here if you want to watch it www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEzTwfP_UVY&t=18s

Ilovecheese

It is the ideology that worries me. The editorial in the New Statesman this week points out the similarities between Liz Truss " You can't tax your way to growth" and Rachel Reeves " I don't see the way to prosperity as being through taxation. I want to grow the economy "
See if this was a bad idea when Liz Truss said it, why is it a good idea because Rachel Reeves says it.

WE don't have any idea how Reeves plans to 'grow the economy' because she hasn't actually explains how she intends to do this.

So fr, the only impression I'm getting of Labour's plans to grow the economy is that they're going to sprinkle some magic growth powder over it, because they certainly don't seem to be planning the massive investment in the public sector (which can be achieved without taxation or 'borrowing' ) which is the only hope for us, as no-one else seems very interested in investing in it.

Truss's 'plan' fell flat because the only thing it consisted of was tax cuts for the wealthy and businesses, neither of which have ever succeeded in the past. And the financial markets thought that they were going to be asked to finance it by buying gilts in far larger quantities that they felt they could manage.

I do see what Glorriany means about Keir Starmer though, he does tend to refer a lot of things back to himself. For instance he calls the Labour Party "My Labour Party" and refers to his background a great deal. I don't remember Tony Blair doing that, he, Blair, talked about what he wanted to do to improve people's lives, and inspired people.
Keir Starmer so often just talks about winning as if that was the be all and end all.
However, I don't really want to pile on a personal attack against him as a person, more about his ideas for the country.

Glorianny

Casdon

*Glorianny’s personal prejudice is blinding her to the facts. Just look at the polls, Starmer is not ‘massively unpopular’ with the electorate at all. He’s more popular than any other party leader or current cabinet minister. I wish people wouldn’t make unfounded claims and pass them off as fact.

Well actually being "more popular" at this time shouldn't really be that difficult. But he certainly isn't very popular and in fact is losing popularity whilst Sunak is gaining.
Our latest Political Pulse release of 25 August shows that for Prime Minister Rishi Sunak, 27% are favourable towards him (+1 from July), and 49% are unfavourable (+2). For Keir Starmer 30% are favourable (-2 from July) and 38% are unfavourable (-1 from July).
Yes more people dislike Sunak, but honestly isn't that to be expected. The question is why don't more people like Starmer?

But why did you say that he was massively unpopular Glorianny when he patently isn’t. It’s not a hook you can wriggle off by saying he isn’t as popular as you think he should be, that’s a different argument.

It is the ideology that worries me. The editorial in the New Statesman this week points out the similarities between Liz Truss " You can't tax your way to growth" and Rachel Reeves " I don't see the way to prosperity as being through taxation. I want to grow the economy "
See if this was a bad idea when Liz Truss said it, why is it a good idea because Rachel Reeves says it.

Casdon

*Glorianny’s personal prejudice is blinding her to the facts. Just look at the polls, Starmer is not ‘massively unpopular’ with the electorate at all. He’s more popular than any other party leader or current cabinet minister. I wish people wouldn’t make unfounded claims and pass them off as fact.

Well actually being "more popular" at this time shouldn't really be that difficult. But he certainly isn't very popular and in fact is losing popularity whilst Sunak is gaining.
Our latest Political Pulse release of 25 August shows that for Prime Minister Rishi Sunak, 27% are favourable towards him (+1 from July), and 49% are unfavourable (+2). For Keir Starmer 30% are favourable (-2 from July) and 38% are unfavourable (-1 from July).
Yes more people dislike Sunak, but honestly isn't that to be expected. The question is why don't more people like Starmer?

MaizieD

DaisyAnneReturns

Just for clarification Maisie. Are you saying that is how you see the Labour Party, or that this is simply your view of how grany sees it?

I think my meaning is quite clear, DAR

Seriously, I was taken aback by the way it read. That's almost certainly more my problem than yours. It also seems to be my problem thst I cannot read minds

*Glorianny’s personal prejudice is blinding her to the facts. Just look at the polls, Starmer is not ‘massively unpopular’ with the electorate at all. He’s more popular than any other party leader or current cabinet minister. I wish people wouldn’t make unfounded claims and pass them off as fact.

Never saw Keir as a power crazed megalomaniac. I think if he just wanted personal power he had plenty of that in his previous job. You only have to hear him talk about his upbringing to realise that he wants to do what’s best for this country. I’m not aware of him being massively unpopular either. He was regarded as being a bit land but I think the electorate have realised that funny charismatic leaders aren’t actually the best ones to lead the country.

Ilovecheese

The last 13 years of Conservative Government have been very damaging for such a lot of people. What I don't understand is why Keir Starmer wants to carry on with the same policies. It is like Glorriany just said, nothing much will change and the Tories will pull themselves together and win the subsequent election. Starmer seems to be relying on being in power for at least two terms and I don't think he can take that for granted.
Or does he just want things to continue as they are because he agrees with Tory ideology?

I'm not sure about that Ilovecheese I think that he is particularly interested in personal power and in doing the top job. He seems unable to recognise the difficulties involved or to take responsibility for failure. He is of course massively unpopular with the wider public and that could cost votes.

The last 13 years of Conservative Government have been very damaging for such a lot of people. What I don't understand is why Keir Starmer wants to carry on with the same policies. It is like Glorriany just said, nothing much will change and the Tories will pull themselves together and win the subsequent election. Starmer seems to be relying on being in power for at least two terms and I don't think he can take that for granted.
Or does he just want things to continue as they are because he agrees with Tory ideology?

They won’t have an impact for ages anyway because Labour have inherited such a mess. So his critics in here will be able to say ‘ see, nothings changed’. I doubt if I’ll be alive by the the time the mess created by 13 years of Conservative government has been unravelled but I’m going to do everything in my power to stop the Conservatives ruining the country for my kids and grandchildren. Which is why I’m so angry at people trying their hardest to stop people voting for Labour because it isn’t quite the Labour Party they personally want. How about helping to get Labour elected and then moan and criticise to your hearts content.

I think the big problem is that if Labour win the election based on Starmer's policies they will have very little impact. After 5 years the Tories will have regrouped, reinvented themselves and will go into the next GE with the ability to win. Should they then return to power nothing much will have changed and things will quickly become worse than they are now.

Some of the problems we have today, such as housing, are because Blair failed to deal with the Tory legacy on social housing. Starmer will do the same on many fronts.

There will also be I think substantial numbers of people who will not vote because they see no difference between the parties.

DaisyAnneReturns

Just for clarification Maisie. Are you saying that is how you see the Labour Party, or that this is simply your view of how grany sees it?

I think my meaning is quite clear, DAR

Just for clarification Maisie. Are you saying that is how you see the Labour Party, or that this is simply your view of how grany sees it?

Iam64

I’m seconding anniebach’s question to Grany.
I suspect Grany and others would prefer the Conservativeswin the next election. That will guarantee increasing inequality and further destruction of public services
Hail the revolution

I think that Grany is suggesting that conservatives will win the next election, conservatives called 'the Labour Party.'..

I’m seconding anniebach’s question to Grany.
I suspect Grany and others would prefer the Conservativeswin the next election. That will guarantee increasing inequality and further destruction of public services
Hail the revolution

Grany you would choose another tory government !

Be careful what you wish for.

Starmer is establishment won’t change anything.

Our society is very unequal he will maintain that inequality.

Casdon

Glorianny

Casdon

The ‘nearly won’ is a misnomer though, Labour lost by 55 seats in 2017.

Not exactly. There was 55 seats difference between Labour and the Conservatives. However there were 71 seats held by other parties., so it was a hung parliament ,which was why the Conservatives had to buy the DUP votes.

I’ll put it another way then. Labour had 55 seats less than the Tories did. It was not a close result between the two major parties. Whatever, Labour did not nearly win the election. It gave me no joy at the time either.

It gave me no joy either. The results in 2017 and 2019 have been disastrous for our country. Devastated public services and an increasingly divided society. We need a party leader /pm who has a chance of re-building our society. The choice currently is Sunak or Starmer. I know where my vote will go, my red wall constituency is easy, vote Labour and destroy the Tory’s 400 majority

Glorianny

Casdon

The ‘nearly won’ is a misnomer though, Labour lost by 55 seats in 2017.

Not exactly. There was 55 seats difference between Labour and the Conservatives. However there were 71 seats held by other parties., so it was a hung parliament ,which was why the Conservatives had to buy the DUP votes.

I’ll put it another way then. Labour had 55 seats less than the Tories did. It was not a close result between the two major parties. Whatever, Labour did not nearly win the election. It gave me no joy at the time either.

Casdon

The ‘nearly won’ is a misnomer though, Labour lost by 55 seats in 2017.

Not exactly. There was 55 seats difference between Labour and the Conservatives. However there were 71 seats held by other parties., so it was a hung parliament ,which was why the Conservatives had to buy the DUP votes.

The ‘nearly won’ is a misnomer though, Labour lost by 55 seats in 2017.

Katie59

Yes Labour nearly won in 2017 the question is would Corbyn have still respected the referendum vote, in any case they were a long way from a working majority.

Well, Corbyn would certainly have 'respected the vote', he was anti EU.

Yes Labour nearly won in 2017 the question is would Corbyn have still respected the referendum vote, in any case they were a long way from a working majority.