More than 100 schools told to close buildings over safety fears

Can you put your hand on your heart and say that you have never not had a meticulously adhered to maintenance programme for everything you may own from house to hoover?
That's different Monica.
If it is anything -buildings, swimming pool, or even outside grounds being used by people, especially children, outside my family, then yes hand on heart .ainteannce has always been my priority. If you are responsible for people's safety you have a future to protect them. You check and check again.

*maintenance

*duty

Sorry my phone is typing weirdly
from abroad!

Joseann

^Can you put your hand on your heart and say that you have never not had a meticulously adhered to maintenance programme for everything you may own from house to hoover?^
That's different Monica.
If it is anything -buildings, swimming pool, or even outside grounds being used by people, especially children, outside my family, then yes hand on heart .ainteannce has always been my priority. If you are responsible for people's safety you have a future to protect them. You check and check again.

How often would you check the entire flat roof of a medium-sized comprehensive school? You would also need to take any internal cladding off and check the internal surfaces.

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

abandon

It is hardwired in, but in a work situation where it is what you are paid to do, you do not cut corners, or should not. However, many people will.

I know that at work, where my work was concerned I could be very precise and make sure everything was done as required, at home, while picky I can let things slide because I am the only one involved and will feel the results of the neglect - except I cross my fingers, hope for the best and generally get away with it.

These buildings were never intended to last beyond 30 or so years. It's not a problem with maintenance, but capital funding to replace them completely as part of a rolling programme.

growstuff

Joseann

Can you put your hand on your heart and say that you have never not had a meticulously adhered to maintenance programme for everything you may own from house to hoover?
That's different Monica.
If it is anything -buildings, swimming pool, or even outside grounds being used by people, especially children, outside my family, then yes hand on heart .ainteannce has always been my priority. If you are responsible for people's safety you have a future to protect them. You check and check again.

How often would you check the entire flat roof of a medium-sized comprehensive school? You would also need to take any internal cladding off and check the internal surfaces.

Never growstuff, I wouldn't know where to start, though I know someone who could speedily facilitate it!!
I was responding to M0nica's saying anything you own from property to hoover.
You're right * M0nica* that if you are charging people to use your property then its your job to be meticulous about maintenance checks, fire regs, insurance, etc. I disapprove of any cutting of corners where safety is concerned, but it happens.

6How often would you check the entire flat roof of a medium-sized comprehensive school? You would also need to take any internal cladding off and check the internal surfaces.^

Not necessarily, there are many ways of checkingbuildings these days using various forms of electronic and other scanning methods. A bit like all the scans of bodies in hospitals or of whats under the ground in archaeology.

M0nica

6How often would you check the entire flat roof of a medium-sized comprehensive school? You would also need to take any internal cladding off and check the internal surfaces.^

Not necessarily, there are many ways of checkingbuildings these days using various forms of electronic and other scanning methods. A bit like all the scans of bodies in hospitals or of whats under the ground in archaeology.

So how much would it cost? And how often would you check?

Joseann

growstuff

Joseann

Can you put your hand on your heart and say that you have never not had a meticulously adhered to maintenance programme for everything you may own from house to hoover?
That's different Monica.
If it is anything -buildings, swimming pool, or even outside grounds being used by people, especially children, outside my family, then yes hand on heart .ainteannce has always been my priority. If you are responsible for people's safety you have a future to protect them. You check and check again.

How often would you check the entire flat roof of a medium-sized comprehensive school? You would also need to take any internal cladding off and check the internal surfaces.

Never growstuff, I wouldn't know where to start, though I know someone who could speedily facilitate it!!
I was responding to M0nica's saying anything you own from property to hoover.
You're right * M0nica* that if you are charging people to use your property then its your job to be meticulous about maintenance checks, fire regs, insurance, etc. I disapprove of any cutting of corners where safety is concerned, but it happens.

This isn't about regular "maintenance", fire regs or insurance.

growstuff Not being a building surveyor I have no idea how often such surveys should take place nor their cost, but that doesn't stop me being aware that there are many non-detructive ways of examining buildings these days.

But as the R4 programme made clear, when the financial shoe pinches, the first thing that is delayed or cancelled is maintenance work.

M0nica

growstuff Not being a building surveyor I have no idea how often such surveys should take place nor their cost, but that doesn't stop me being aware that there are many non-detructive ways of examining buildings these days.

But as the R4 programme made clear, when the financial shoe pinches, the first thing that is delayed or cancelled is maintenance work.

I used to be married to a building surveyor, so I have an idea how much surveys cost, especially when scaffolding and asbestos investigations are needed. It obviously depends on the size and circumstances of the build, but we're talking about tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of pounds and very regular surveys. Schools just do not have that kind of money. It's becoming increasingly evident that local authorities and trusts were, in fact, aware of problems, but couldn't then afford the remedial work anyway.

I am aware that lidar and some other techniques are used in surveying. My partner has been involved in surveying a car park for an ancient artefact and I've seen the kind of results produced. (The area involved is tiny compared with a school flat roof, but it was still expensive.) I'm not a surveyor myself, but I doubt if the results would show when materials are stressed. A building surveyor is still needed and, in any case, if there is some kind of stress or fault, a structural engineer will still be needed to plan mitigating work with minimal disruption.

The point is that these buildings were never intended to last long-term and patched up like a listed building. It was known that they would need to be replaced, but it would appear there was little planning for contingency funding. It's emerging that the current government has diverted money for rebuilding to free school ideological pet projects. There have also been more cases of collapse over the last few years than was made publicly known. There's a lot of passing the buck going on.

This isn't about "maintenance" work. Nobody in his/her right mind would try to "maintain" a sand castle. Maintenance and a planned programme of replacement aren't the same thing, although I agree that financial penny pinching means both are pushed to the back of the queue.

I don’t believe you’re totally right in what you’re saying growstuff, because many affected buildings only have a small proportion of their construction made of this type of concrete, which is replaceable without completely rebuilding the structure. The fault really is in no registers of which buildings, and where in those buildings it was used as that would have helped prevent these issues if there had been a planned replacement programme in place.

growstuff

This isn't about "maintenance" work. Nobody in his/her right mind would try to "maintain" a sand castle. Maintenance and a planned programme of replacement aren't the same thing, although I agree that financial penny pinching means both are pushed to the back of the queue.

The reason this type of concrete fails is if it gets wet, proper vigilance and maintenance should be able to prevent thst.

I don't think it should ever be used in the first place and believe that building schools etc with cheap materials with a limited lifespan is shortsighted, costs more in the long-term and, well, I'm lost for words!!

Cheapskate Britain?

When it was used, the country was in desperate need of new schools. As I've mentioned before, Essex had a particular need (mentioned in a Guardian article, so it's not just me imagining things).

I don't know whether it costs more in the long run, if there's a proper replacement programme in place. It's a fact that areas experience demographic change over the decades. New building from the 50s and 60s has an aging population. Young families from the 50s and 60s (baby boom time) are sometimes still in the same houses, but don't have any children. Whereas some areas have a shortage of school places, others are shutting schools because there are too many places. It would make sense to replace schools every decade or so, so that they're situated in the communities where they're needed, rather than using temporary classrooms.

When RAAC was first used, it was known that it wouldn't last for decades, but it wasn't known how long it would last or what the problems would be. It's not just that it's cheaper than concrete, but it's lighter. If you look at schools built in the 60s, many of them are constructed from a metal shell with loads of glass. This was a reaction against gloomy older buildings, but the walls couldn't bear much weight. They were like greenhouses and I don't think anybody would put a concrete roof on a greenhouse.

The fact is the schools (and hospitals) were cheap and cheerful and served a purpose at the time. In any case, I don't suppose many of the councillors or council employees who approved the builds are still in post!

How do you suggest schools should be properly vigilant? Have you seen the size of a secondary school roof? I honestly don't think maintenance staff have the time to spend every day on the roof checking for breaches.

Many people who have flat roofs at home know that water has a sneaky way of getting into even the smallest of gaps in the bitumen coating (or whatever is used). It then finds its level and runs quite a distance before it eventually forms a puddle and comes through the ceiling. It sometimes very difficult to find where the water is coming in. Incidentally, it's not just water which causes the problems. The RAAC tiles have a metal bar running through them, which are supposed to rest on joists. All buildings move slightly over time and the bars can sometimes slip off their supports. If that happens, it can cause the RAAC to crumble and eventually collapse.

Casdon

I don’t believe you’re totally right in what you’re saying growstuff, because many affected buildings only have a small proportion of their construction made of this type of concrete, which is replaceable without completely rebuilding the structure. The fault really is in no registers of which buildings, and where in those buildings it was used as that would have helped prevent these issues if there had been a planned replacement programme in place.

I don't think all buildings need total rebuilds and I'm sorry if I've given that impression. However, there are some schools which do need to be replaced in their entirety. It's likely that they will need to be evacuated, while workers are on site, especially if there's asbestos.

PS. Yes, there should have been a planned replacement programme in place. Essex did have one and applied for the funding, which the government refused.

This is an aerial view of one of the worst affected schools. For a secondary school, it's quite small, but over half the classrooms are affected. I've seen an internal floorplan of the classrooms which can't be used. The two blocks on the right are modern extensions and aren't affected and the building at the front has solar panels and is OK. However, most of the rest is the original 1964 building and has had to be closed.

The whole site looks like a mishmash of unco-ordinated and unmatched buildings.

If a private company was applying for planning permission to put up such buildings it would probably be refused.

What a mess, even without the problems with structure.

I have an idea how much surveys cost
£5k for assessment survey and concrete sampling.

growstuff if children are expected to be in school everyday then it is the rsponsible of the school and local and national government to make sure they are safe and that includes having enough money in their budget to maintain them properly.

There should be clear building plans of the school available to those responsible for building maintenance. It should include wiring, plumbing and heating plans together with schedules of all equipment installed and basic details of construction and materials used. Good and timely maintenance will save money and keep buildings in good order for prolonged trouble free use and ensure that our schools are safe places to entrust our children.

M0nica

growstuff if children are expected to be in school everyday then it is the rsponsible of the school and local and national government to make sure they are safe and that includes having enough money in their budget to maintain them properly.

There should be clear building plans of the school available to those responsible for building maintenance. It should include wiring, plumbing and heating plans together with schedules of all equipment installed and basic details of construction and materials used. Good and timely maintenance will save money and keep buildings in good order for prolonged trouble free use and ensure that our schools are safe places to entrust our children.

That’s Utopia not reality Monica. Schools could be accurately predicting their requirements, submitting bids via their LAs, which would be prioritised, costed and submitted to the government, but when there’s insufficient allocation the problems continue to grow.
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