Voter ID led to racial and disability discrimination

maddyone

Well I suppose the answer to that is to make it obligatory to vote. However I don’t agree with that, but I guess it would solve the problem.
I’m really not going to worry myself about this none problem. People will vote if they want to and they won’t vote if they don’t want to. If they want to vote they’ll avail themselves of the facility provided by the council to get free voter ID if they need it (which would then be useful if needed for anything else such as registering a death.) Problem solved.

Availing yourself of this free service is not as easy as it sounds. You need to know where to go and what to ask for to start with. And you need to do it in plenty of time before an election. I did it and it was a farce. The ID that comes is a piece of A4 paper that you are supposed to keep safe for 10 years and is not valid for any other purpose than voting. I don’t even know if it is portable when you move out of your council area but suspect that it isn’t.

To those saying there is very little evidence of voter fraud- how do you know? Statistics are no proof here- Prosecutions will be low because it was so easy to do people could easily get away with it and never be discovered. I’m all for universal ID like many other democratic countries (countries which are actually more democratic than our archaic system). .

GrannyRose15

maddyone

Well I suppose the answer to that is to make it obligatory to vote. However I don’t agree with that, but I guess it would solve the problem.
I’m really not going to worry myself about this none problem. People will vote if they want to and they won’t vote if they don’t want to. If they want to vote they’ll avail themselves of the facility provided by the council to get free voter ID if they need it (which would then be useful if needed for anything else such as registering a death.) Problem solved.

Availing yourself of this free service is not as easy as it sounds. You need to know where to go and what to ask for to start with. And you need to do it in plenty of time before an election. I did it and it was a farce. The ID that comes is a piece of A4 paper that you are supposed to keep safe for 10 years and is not valid for any other purpose than voting. I don’t even know if it is portable when you move out of your council area but suspect that it isn’t.

Our council advertised it everywhere. The form was available both online, or by phoning the freephone number.

You did need to allow a week or so, particularly if you were not doing it online.

I'm not sure whether it's portable though.🙂

Voter ID seems suspicious to me. The answer is universal ID cards. I know there is a feeling among many that the UK is 'different'. So let's just stay behind the times then and see how that helps us.

You've got to have ID rules. Wish we had more. Everyone should carry identification in these current times. If you were interested in voting you would comply. That's why I don't read the Guardian. How does anyone know whose behind a mask? Ridiculous.

DiamondLily
You did need to allow a week or so, particularly if you were not doing it online.
You have to wait much longer for a passport, but those who want to do something that needs one make sure they do it.

vegansrock

To those saying there is very little evidence of voter fraud- how do you know? Statistics are no proof here- Prosecutions will be low because it was so easy to do people could easily get away with it and never be discovered. I’m all for universal ID like many other democratic countries (countries which are actually more democratic than our archaic system). .

I was just thinking the same. It’s often said that there’s very little evidence of benefit fraud - but that’s surely because, by definition, the only cases known of are those where it’s already been proved.

I dare say the same could be said for election fraud.

I’m another in favour of ID cards - IMO it’s crazy that we don’t already have them. The world has changed a lot since the days when (except for wartime) they were considered unnecessary and very un-British.

Witzend

vegansrock

To those saying there is very little evidence of voter fraud- how do you know? Statistics are no proof here- Prosecutions will be low because it was so easy to do people could easily get away with it and never be discovered. I’m all for universal ID like many other democratic countries (countries which are actually more democratic than our archaic system). .

I was just thinking the same. It’s often said that there’s very little evidence of benefit fraud - but that’s surely because, by definition, the only cases known of are those where it’s already been proved.

I dare say the same could be said for election fraud.

I’m another in favour of ID cards - IMO it’s crazy that we don’t already have them. The world has changed a lot since the days when (except for wartime) they were considered unnecessary and very un-British.

I am astounded and appalled.

So it's absolutely fine to take away people's rights and freedoms on the basis of absolutely no evidence whatsoever? Because it 'might' be happening under the radar?

What rights have been taken away? Have people been told they can’t vote?

Mollygo go back to the original premise- at least 14000 voters were disqualified/disenfranchised etc.
My postal vote was once disallowed because my signature didn’t match up. How that happened I don’t know. Not on grounds of ethnicity. Stuff happens.

Ronib, was that because they hadn’t bothered to get ID?

You may be interested Maizie that I read about this report yesterday and discussed it with my husband and agreewith you. We are both feel this is a "further erosion of rights" and that the outcome of the review was inevitable. Earlier evidence from elsewhere saw this happen. They also found racial and disability discrimination.

You are right to say that Disenfranchisement is a very serious harm to the individual and to democracy. - however we are now seeing here on Gransnet a re-run of the arguments raised before it was brought in instead of a reevaluation of thoughts because of the outcome.

I didn't post yesterday as I'm super busy this week and sensed it would just be a re-run!
It is!

Mollygo it seems that polling clerks have difficulty matching up id to voters of a different ethnicity or so it is claimed. It is alleged that this is happening.

But Monica your claim that there is little election fraud is based on “no evidence” either as it’s almost impossible to discover. Anecdotally, I know of people who have voted for someone else when that person has asked them to and they had no problem even though that is illegal. I know that isn’t evidence either, but since they weren’t challenged or asked for ID there were no repercussions. I wonder if there are any other comparable countries where you don’t need ID to vote.

Mollygo

DiamondLily
You did need to allow a week or so, particularly if you were not doing it online.
You have to wait much longer for a passport, but those who want to do something that needs one make sure they do it.

Yes, I have to renew my passport 3 months before the old one expires.

Same with my Blue Badge, although that has got quicker now I can do it online.

I need both things, so I just apply in time. I don't see it as difficult.🙂

To me the really bad about our electoral system are
A) the first past the post system, which defeats any real democracy.
and (B) Not having compulsory voting,

Place on ballot paper for people to tiock NONE OF THE ABOVE. but everyone eligible should have to vote.

Our current system just continues minority governments with huge majorities in the HoCommons.

As for Voter ID. Even the Tories themselves admitted that it was to enable older voteres (moe of them likely to vote Tory (although I have no idea why)_,and make it difficult for younger and poorer voteres. Which was why the Bus Pass was permitted as ID fot oldies, buth the same card was NOT allowed for younger votrs.

vegansrock

But Monica your claim that there is little election fraud is based on “no evidence” either as it’s almost impossible to discover. Anecdotally, I know of people who have voted for someone else when that person has asked them to and they had no problem even though that is illegal. I know that isn’t evidence either, but since they weren’t challenged or asked for ID there were no repercussions. I wonder if there are any other comparable countries where you don’t need ID to vote.

Sorry, vegansrock, but a government should not be legislating on the strength of 'it might be happening'. That would be completely mad and potentially very dangerous indeed.

The only evidence we have to date is that voter fraud, specifically 'personation' is negligible to the point of practically non existence. It was not a sound basis for introducing voter ID.

GrannySomerset money laundering rules mean you can’t open a bank account, deal in shares or write a will without photo ID.
Dh works in finance and it can be very difficult for the elderly without a passport or driving licence.

Now you can’t vote in person without photo ID. However if you apply for a postal vote you don’t need to send a photo or have your id otherwise verified. That seems a bit of an anomaly. If we are going to continue with voter id the system needs to be improved. It would be interesting to look at figures of double voting where students and second home owners for example obtained 2 votes. Really it’s about balance and making the system as fair as possible.

You are right to say that Disenfranchisement is a very serious harm to the individual and to democracy. - however we are now seeing here on Gransnet a re-run of the arguments raised before it was brought in instead of a reevaluation of thoughts because of the outcome.

I didn't post yesterday as I'm super busy this week and sensed it would just be a re-run!
It is!

Thanks for that NotSpaghetti

I thought it would probably be a re-run, too, but it was worth a try.

Franbern

To me the really bad about our electoral system are
A) the first past the post system, which defeats any real democracy.
and (B) Not having compulsory voting,

Place on ballot paper for people to tiock NONE OF THE ABOVE. but everyone eligible should have to vote.

Our current system just continues minority governments with huge majorities in the HoCommons.

As for Voter ID. Even the Tories themselves admitted that it was to enable older voteres (moe of them likely to vote Tory (although I have no idea why)_,and make it difficult for younger and poorer voteres. Which was why the Bus Pass was permitted as ID fot oldies, buth the same card was NOT allowed for younger votrs.

Two things.
One, you really believe in forcing people to vote? I know some countries do but that’s a step too far for me.
Two, where on earth did you read that the Tories said that?😂
Unless it was the personal opinion of one possibly drunk MP.

vegansrock

To those saying there is very little evidence of voter fraud- how do you know? Statistics are no proof here- Prosecutions will be low because it was so easy to do people could easily get away with it and never be discovered. I’m all for universal ID like many other democratic countries (countries which are actually more democratic than our archaic system). .

Quite!

MaizieD

^You are right to say that Disenfranchisement is a very serious harm to the individual and to democracy. - however we are now seeing here on Gransnet a re-run of the arguments raised before it was brought in instead of a reevaluation of thoughts because of the outcome.^

I didn't post yesterday as I'm super busy this week and sensed it would just be a re-run!
It is!

Thanks for that NotSpaghetti

I thought it would probably be a re-run, too, but it was worth a try.

By re-run I presume you mean because most posters don’t share your own opinion.
Arguments raised before it was brought in and revaluation after needn’t change anyones mind, especially with the reasons given, voters who refuse to unmask and a whole lot of maybe’s and perhaps’s about possible failings by poll clerks.
Get the correct ID with clear photo and vote, or apply for a postal vote.

maddyone

vegansrock

To those saying there is very little evidence of voter fraud- how do you know? Statistics are no proof here- Prosecutions will be low because it was so easy to do people could easily get away with it and never be discovered. I’m all for universal ID like many other democratic countries (countries which are actually more democratic than our archaic system). .

Quite!

👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

Oreo

maddyone

vegansrock

To those saying there is very little evidence of voter fraud- how do you know? Statistics are no proof here- Prosecutions will be low because it was so easy to do people could easily get away with it and never be discovered. I’m all for universal ID like many other democratic countries (countries which are actually more democratic than our archaic system). .

Quite!

👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

You an clap as much as you like, Oreo, but it doesn't make it any less dangerous, and irresponsible for a government to legislate on the strength of beliefs rather than evidence.

Two, where on earth did you read that the Tories said that?😂
Unless it was the personal opinion of one possibly drunk MP.

It was said by ex minister, Jacob Rees Mogg at the 'New Conservatives' conference earlier this year. Discussed on this forum at the time.

He, in effect, said that their attempt to gerrymander the vote had failed because a lot of the people who didn't have ID were older voters (on whom the tory party depends for most of their vote)

He may have been drunk at the time, seems unlikely but you can never tell...

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/jacob-rees-mogg-admits-tory-voter-id-law-was-gerrymandering_uk_64620db8e4b03e16f1a45050